Lee Grady: Can We Avoid a Charismatic Civil War?..a comment

That’s the title of Lee Grady’s newest commentary at Charisma on-line.

I’ve always loved Lee because for years I’ve seen in him a true Godly peace-maker. He is an example of those Jesus spoke about on the Sermon on the Mount:

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God…(Matthew 5)

Lee has also been instrumental in standing as a ‘bridge’ between Pentecostals (those who teach and believe the gifts of the Spirit are still in operation today) and other groups who insist they passed away. In other words, he has always appeared to be respected by even those who may have disagreed with him on this issue..

BUT….

I would have to strongly disagree with him concerning at least one of his points in this newest commentary:

***

Some leaders say the controversial Lakeland Revival is forcing us to choose sides. But I don’t believe God wants to split our movement.

It’s been more than 10 years since charismatic prophet Rick Joyner predicted in his popular book The Final Quest (*NOTE: see the excellent article at LET US REASON on Joyner’s Final Quest) that believers would experience a Civil War in the church. Joyner’s book, based on a series of visions he says God showed him, describes in graphic detail a turbulent conflict that redefines Christianity as we know it.

Other charismatic leaders have echoed this theme since Joyner’s book was published in 1996. They have predicted that our movement will be divided between “Blues” (those who constantly live in the supernatural realm of dreams, visions and miracles) and “Grays” (those who rely more on their intellect), and that the Blues will win and usher in true revival as champions of the Holy Spirit’s power.

Even in early 2008, before the Lakeland Revival erupted in Florida in April, some charismatic prophets were declaring that a great rift would divide those who believe in “the glory realm” and those who have a more conservative, left-brained approach to their faith. When God TV began its nightly broadcasts of evangelist Todd Bentley’s healing meetings in Lakeland, the Civil War prophecies reappeared overnight on hundreds of blogs and e-mail blasts.

“Jesus prayed that we would be one. There is no record of Him praying that we would split over doctrine.”

I’ll admit I was not paying too much attention to these Civil War predictions 10 years ago. But I was jolted into reality in May after I wrote an online column in which I raised honest questions about some of Bentley’s teachings and techniques. Even though I celebrated his passion and zeal, and praised God for the healings that were reported in Lakeland, I was immediately branded a revival critic and banished to the Gray camp.

I became the bad guy because, by asking questions, I was “relying on my intellect.” To those in the Blue camp, my skepticism made me an enemy of the Holy Spirit and all things supernatural—even though I believe that all the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today!

I tried to laugh this off at first. Surely, I imagined, my Christian brothers and sisters do not really think it is wrong for a Spirit-filled believer to test the spirits (which we are instructed to do in 1 John 4:1), discern truth (see 2 Pet. 3:17) or evaluate prophecies and angelic encounters (see 1 Cor. 14:29, Gal. 1:6-8).

But now I realize that some people really want a war. They want the charismatic movement to split right down the middle. They imply that all those who do not embrace 100 percent of the current movement in Lakeland are “old wineskins” that cannot be used by God in the coming revival.

I can’t even describe how much this hurts because I love people on both sides of this conflict. I love the Blues and the Grays, along with every other color in the body of Christ. I refuse to believe that God is trying to split us. Division is the devil’s work.

I want to plead with everyone in our movement to reconsider the whole Civil War scenario. Instead of rattling sabers and stockpiling gunpowder, maybe we need to take steps in the opposite direction:

1. Let’s accept one another. The apostle Paul rebuked the Corinthians because they exalted certain gifts above others. He reminded them that every member of the body of Christ plays an important role, and that no individual part—whether eye, hand or foot—functions on its own. He rebuked this elitist attitude “so that there may be no division in the body” (1 Cor. 12:25, NASB).

Most of us already acknowledge the importance of supernatural gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues and other demonstrations of God’s power. But in our zeal to recover these gifts, let’s not isolate those whose primary functions may be mercy, giving to the poor, teaching or intercession. We should cherish every spiritual gift—not just the sensational or the exotic.

2. Let’s admonish one another. Christians have not always been the best models of conflict resolution. When tension gets high we either avoid it (usually by saying nothing and hoping the problems go away) or we overreact (by childishly picking up our marbles and playing somewhere else). But the Bible tells us to work things out in eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation.

In the case of Lakeland, there are some doctrines and methods that have come under intense scrutiny. Heresy hunters are having a field day as they toss their grenades and label everything in Lakeland demonic. But because I embrace Todd Bentley as my brother in Christ, I must take a higher road even if I don’t agree with his prayer methods or his claims regarding angels. Anything I say, even if it is corrective, must be said in love (see Eph. 4:15).

Thankfully a group of leaders from various charismatic camps (both “Blues” and “Grays”!) are discussing the contentious issues surrounding Lakeland—and biblical confrontation is occurring. I trust this process will result in correction where it’s needed, apologies when necessary and more humility on all sides of the debate.

3. Let’s pray for one another (see James 5:16). Jesus prayed that we would be one. There is no record of Him praying that we would split over doctrine. So why in the world would any of us hope for a Civil War?

Please pray for Bentley—and for the leaders who are speaking into his life during this season. And pray that the church will not only experience genuine spiritual revival but also true unity. Let’s work out our differences, support one another’s ministries and focus all our efforts on one common goal: To tell a lost world about the love of Jesus.

******

Lee’s words are good admonishments, we should love and pray for each other, and I agree with him that Jesus’ desire was and is to see His body as ‘one’. But I think we need to be careful in as far as his first suggestion:

1. Let’s accept one another.

First, what does that mean, “accept one another”?

He goes on to explain this has to do with spiritual gifts, how the Corinthians exalted certain gifts above others…and how we are not to discount the ‘gifting’ of other parts of the body ( mercy, giving to the poor, teaching or intercession, etc)

I agree with this, but is that what he is asking the Church to do when saying ‘accept one another’?

Or is he admonishing us to accept others who blatantly teach falsehoods and extra-biblical teachings, or that are operating as false prophets, imparting ’something’ on multiple thousands of people which they claim will open them up (spiritually) to visions, seeing Angels, opening portals in the heavens which will enable them to make the same (or similar) “trips to heaven” as they frequently experience?

We cannot do that brothers and sisters–that’s unity based on the flesh–a false unity; not true unity which can only be found (with others) through Jesus Christ alone.

He mentions Paul..

Would Paul, if here today be telling the body of Christ to ‘accept’ all those who claim to be followers of Christ, EVEN IF they were bringing damnable heresies and false unbiblical or extra-biblical teachings into the body of Christ? Of course he wouldn’t!

“As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do…..This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;  Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme” 1 Tim:1

“Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [Gk., anathema, - devoted to destruction]” Gal. 1:8

Lee also goes on to write;

In the case of Lakeland, there are some doctrines and methods that have come under intense scrutiny. Heresy hunters are having a field day as they toss their grenades and label everything in Lakeland demonic. But because I embrace Todd Bentley as my brother in Christ, I must take a higher road even if I don’t agree with his prayer methods or his claims regarding angels.

My question is, how can you separate the two? How can any Christian separate a person’s doctrines –which in the case of Todd Bentley, are extremely extra-biblical, with the person themself, and accept one into the body but not the other? Does the word of God tell us this is possible?

Folks, I’m not talking about differing positions/doctrines on ways to baptize, election or predestination, eschatology, etc (not that those are not important) but I’m talking about basic Gospel doctrines which have to do with ones salvation and/or growth in Christ. I’m talking about doctrine which reveals the character of God, Jesus, and the blessed Holy Spirit.

We cannot accept those who twist, add to, or are blatantly teaching falsehoods and extreme dangerous doctrinal error, and bringing these into the Church for the sake of ‘unity’.

If this is what Lee Grady is saying–then I totally disagree with him.

31 Responses

  1. Really good post and I agree with your concerning your two major points of disagreement with Mr. Grady. And although I am no person’s judge, I would find it difficult to accept Todd Bently as a ‘brother in Christ’, whatever that is supposed to mean. I can judge no man, but I think the Bible is specific about our fellowship with those who are apostate and/or heretical.

    I have watched bits and pieces of everything connected with the ‘revival’ from the ’street witnessing’ training to the worship and the services. I weighed it all in the balance of scripture and found it terribly wanting. I did some posts over at my place and rather than name names and specific heresies, I chose to focus on the signs of true revival.

    Again, great post.

  2. Good post. My wife and I are really struggling as we watch our friends land on different sides of this one. We are almost getting to the point that we don’t want to be associated with charismatics. Between TBN and God TV we are not being represented very well.

    I recently put a youtube video together featuring Mark Driscoll addressing some common pitfalls that many charismatics fall into. If you are interested it is here:

  3. Why doesn’t Mr.Grady implore those who are overseeing Todd to bring correction to what is blatantly erroneous and being broadcast around the globe?
    I believe this is a test for the Body of Christ.
    Will we receive another spirit, another Jesus, another gospel? Or will we hold fast to the Lord Jesus our Head?
    I have never prayed for the Body of Christ as I have in the past few weeks.

  4. I wonder what Lee would ever qualify as deception and doctrines of demons if that’s not what we’re dealing with now?

  5. trackback

  6. I think Lee is in danger of falling into the ‘unity or peace’ at any cost pot. I pray im wrong.

    So many well known Christian voices are trying to throw water on these false teachings coming out of this new movement, by only addressing unity and/or love; while both these are so important, and need to be talked about (and practiced!) we can’t place those above what the word tells us about false doctrine or those who teach it in the Church.

    We have to stay balanced.

    Herescope blog has a good post up this week titled:

    Miracles – Preaching the Gospel = ___?

    The author is right. Miracles alone do not equal anything…

    The same principle can be used to point to obvious false or extra biblical teachings:

    Signs and Wonders + False teachings – the Gospel = ___?

    What it = is deceivement, and people dying lost.

    I wonder what Lee would ever qualify as deception and doctrines of demons if that’s not what we’re dealing with now?

    Thats a good question, and one he needs to answer in my opinion…

    How much leaven are we to accept, or how outlandish does the teaching have to be, before we point it out as dangerously false or heretical?

  7. Patrick Henry “It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace– but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! ”

    It fit a little, so I posted it. This vision of Joyner’s is idiotic. Blues and grays? All nonsense. Still, one can only hope that there really will be a civil war, as atleast it would mean that there are enough Christians who stand up against delusion to make for a decent resistance against this revival of idiocy.

  8. Dan at Cerulean Sanctum, posted a reply to Lee Grady’s commentary. Its well worth reading. I think he is right…

    While I share Grady’s powerless feeling as I watch the errors compound in large swaths of the charismatic movement, regardless of what anyone thinks of Rick Joyner’s prophetic powers, A Gray casualty of the Civil War, it always had to lead to this confrontation. You get on a road that forks, at some point you have to decide which way to go. Sadly, one side chose experiences, ecstasies, armies, dominion, and the age-old whisperings in the Garden while the other chose Jesus.

    The answer to Grady’s question is a simple no. No, we can’t avoid a civil war within the charismatic movement because one side chose truth while the other chose error. One side chose the Bible while the other chose untested prophetic revelation. One side was satisfied with Jesus alone while the other wanted more.

    You can’t make those two sides fit together. They practically define mutual exclusivity.

    Here’s a simple question: “What portion of the gold in the old temple contained impurities? Answer: None of it. The gold in the temple, the gold God took great pains to describe, was pure gold.

    If God went to such pains to ensure that an item as simple as a gold cup used in His Old Testament temple was free of all alloyed taint, how much impurity will He tolerate in the teachings and preachings delivered by the New Testament temples of His Holy Spirit?

    And that’s all you have to know here. We may see through a glass darkly, but that doesn’t mean we tolerate impurities and pretend they aren’t there. Yet how much doctrinal foolishness must pass in some sectors of the charismatic movement before it draws God’s wrathful fire?

    Just a glance at the fully ripened fruit on the Blue side of Rick Joyner’s vision should be enough to disqualify that army entirely. Please, just open your eyes. Even a little.

    It had to come down to this.

    Rick Joyner prophesies a great end times revival as the Blue army advances under a banner of dreams, visions, miracles, and prophetic words. He sees The Blues triumphing over the more “intellectual, but less spiritual” Grays, redefining Christianity, for the better, in the process.

    Here’s what the Bible sees:

    Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. —2 Thessalonians 2:3-15

    “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. —Matthew 24:9-25

    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. —2 Timothy 4:3-4

    Now I ask you, does this support Joyner’s Blue army prophecy in any way? Even the slightest?

    Well, perhaps it does—by exposing it!

    I could get into Latter Day Rain, Joel’s Army, The Manifest Sons of God, The New Breed, Lakeland, Toronto, Brownsville, Pensacola, the Kansas City Prophets, and a million other Blue army buzzwords, but the time is short. Honestly, it’s very, very short.

    Read enough about this civil war “prophecy” and you’ll even have some saying it will come down to bloodshed. With Blue proponents claiming that some Blues will be immortal this side of heaven, I guess it’s clear whose blood will be shed.

    It’s time for the civil war. It had to happen. No one asked for it, but here it is.

    If you’re a charismatic who believes that we need to test the marching orders and practices of the Blue army and are grieved by the blatant doctrinal fallacies and outright myths erupting like sores on some sectors of the charismatic movement, understand this: You are the new enemy. You are the Gray.

    Maranatha.

  9. Most of these comments are purely false, claiming to be on the side of truth but inflated with pride and intolerance. If there is intolerance on either side it must be repented of. The Bible is clear that God hates those who cause division in the Body of Christ. It is interesting to note which side the accusations are coming from. When someone says that Todd is not even a brother, why don’t you go to Lakeland yourself or better yet talk to him in person before you judge the vessel God chooses to use. I am pretty disgusted with the kind of comments I see here.

  10. I am pretty disgusted with the kind of comments I see here.

    Thank you for your honesty ‘Honesty’ :-)

    As we most likely will not be seeing you pop in here again because of the disgust you feel, i do want to thank you now for dropping by and leaving your opinion…

    God bless…

  11. Matter of fact, I did pop in here again. I had some things I feel I can share now….that may help the rift. The charismatics (blue/prophetic vs. grey/intellectuals) need to pray for each other and “agree to disagree” and stop the name calling and judging.

    It would do well if Todd and his leadership would pray as to how they “apply” the gifts …and to consider that not everyone in the TV audience or at Lakeland are as “out of the box” as they are. The Bible says the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. If God truly wants to heal someone, He can still do that when a touch is gently applied rather than when someone like Todd shouts “Bam” and knocks out someone’s dentures ;) know what I mean? We need to use wisdom realizing this is a worldwide TV audience.

    We may not agree that this kind of drunkenness is of God, but there is Biblical evidence for it some say. There is a time to enjoy the more 2nd chpt Acts kind of ‘drunken to the hilt’ glory festivities, but national TV may not “get it,” ….so the idea is to pray for God’s wisdom and timing and methods for these situations.

    On the side of the greys/intellectual charismatics, realize that criticising and accusing others creates division. How many of you actually went to Lakeland and saw/felt/discerned for yourself? Or are you judging by “outward appearance” which is sin. Also, God does not need your ‘permission’ on how He brings healing revival or whom He uses. If He has to use a tatooed former drug addict to get the job done, He can do that you know. Perhaps He is testing whether you will lean to your own understanding, whether you will be judgmental, or whether you will walk in love.

    Remember how Jesus said, You shall know they are my disciples by their love. How do you think disunity appears before the unbelievers? Can we agree to disaree for the sake fo the unity of the Body and for those whom Jesus died? That’s my piece.

  12. Dear Honesty,
    We cannot agree to disagree about “false teachings”! Todd teaches things that are NOT BIBLICAL ~ that makes him a false teacher. Most people aren’t judging Todd (as a person or his eternal standing beore the Lord), but they are judging his teachings (which God commands us to do).

    Thanks to God TV, we’re able to watch the shows ourselves without needing to attend in person. Todd should be preaching the Gospel as the Bible instructs. Then he would see real signs & wonders following ~ people being born-again into the Kingdom. “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel… (1 Cor 1:17)” and “…we preach Christ crucified… (1 Cor 1:23)”

    False teachers bring disunity to the Church by teaching things that are not Biblical. Thank goodness for faithful watchwomen like PJ who boldly proclaim the Truth of God in all wisdom. P.S. I know many people here and elsewhere (myself included) who are praying fervently for Todd and all those in Lakeland. God Bless you always and lead you into all Truth. “Sanctify them in the truth; Thy Word is truth. (John 17:17)”

  13. I have talked to MANY who went to Lakeland and saw and heard Todd for over a week at a time, as well as from their home computers or TV’s. Every one of them has said that Todd preached the Word (Biblical truth.) and has brought savations, healings, and miracles through God’s Spirit. His doctrine is sound but you judge it is not. You shall know them by their fruits, Jesus said. Todd has led thousands upon thousands to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Until you can say you have done as much, I doubt you are in a position to judge Todd. That’s not to say flesh does not come in as with any revival, no revival has ever been perfect. But I know some of Todd’s team personally, and they know him that he seeks God more than most of us, loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart, and God is using him to bring salvation and healings to many, including raising the dead! Yes any of these miracles have been verified. Just continue to pray for Todd. He has been delivered out of a very dark life from before he was saved and God isn’t through with him yet! Where is your compassion and love??? We are judged by the same judgment we judge others by….so where does that put you my friend?

  14. Honesty you say;

    His doctrine is sound

    Are you going by what you see or have you really taken the time to research just what Todd Bentley’s doctrinal beliefs are?

    You can find any number of articles and posts here at this blog and at many many others, concerning his doctrine and/or teachings.

    For a beginning try reading through his teachings on angels HERE

    Do you agree with this? please let us know…

    You shall know them by their fruits, Jesus said.

    and fruits are also ones beliefs too Honesty…

    Todd has led thousands upon thousands to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ

    what proof of these thousands do you have?

    Until you can say you have done as much, I doubt you are in a position to judge Todd.

    No judging of the person but yes, we will judge his teachings; why? because we are commanded to do so…

    But I know some of Todd’s team personally

    Who? please give us the names…

    Where is your compassion and love??? We are judged by the same judgment we judge others by….so where does that put you my friend?

    It sounds to me like it is you who are judging persons–instead of teachings.

    Where is our love? Its love which tells others the truth!

    Where is YOUR LOVE, in continuing to deny the truth which tells us to try the spirits, to test ‘all things’ and to hold to pure doctrine? You are lacking love my friend, in trying to heap condemnation on those who are obeying the word of God.

  15. My friends who stand with Todd on the platform at times and go with him on missions trips are Barbara and Larry Rail. PLEASE don’t bug them. They are friends of mine. They were saved out of TM like I was. They wouldn’t team up with Todd if they did not know personally up close that he is genuine and Biblical.
    1) I don’t have a problem with Todd and the angels manifestations. Heaven is a lot bigger than your concepts. Angels Todd talks about bring Biblical blessings. I have seen angelic beings also. They can and do take different forms.
    2) Roaring like a lion can symbolize prophetic enactment of how Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah…who does “roar” in His majesty. God uses Todd in “unconventional (to you) ways. Oh but God can’t do that, can He (doesn’t fit your box.)
    3) What about Todd’s fruits of soul winning, thousands of them, and healings, and raising the dead… proof is from the eye witness reports I read online and from what my friends the Rails saw who travelled with Todd first hand. Seems to me you WANT to doubt that God is using Todd in soul winning.
    4) God says to judge the teachings, but not misjudge them through myopic (nearsighted, faulty) levels of understanding.
    5) I received a word from the Lord the other day that Christians are now being persecuted from both sides, from the believers as well as the unbelievers. But that is nothing new, there have always been Pharisees. Conflicts among brethren arise because people judge themselves as right and others as wrong, it always brings bad fruit. The Bible says if a man thinks he knows something, he does not know as he ought to know. The Word also says that God HATES those who sow discord among the brethren. We are to maintain the unity of the Body in the bond of peace. There is room for us to disagree. That is what loving the brethren is, not accusations and finger pointing. Error has many times come when the letter of the law is promoted instead of by the Spirit of Love.

  16. Roaring like a lion can symbolize prophetic enactment of how Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah…who does “roar” in His majesty.

    sigh…There is not one scripture in the bible which tells us that, or that we are to roar like a lion…but i’ll let you in on something:

    I’ve worked in deliverance for a long time. Part of that time was in a deliverance ministry. I’ve seen and heard demons roar like lions through the person, and cause the possessed person to take on (right before my eyes) the characteristics of animals. Its an ugly ‘unholy’ sight to behold.

    The blessed Holy Spirit will never cause a child of God to act in this manner.

    I realize i am talking to a wall–for you have made up your mind, not based on scripture, but on the teachings of demons, that these things are of God.

    Think on this:

    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. 1peter 5:8

    I don’t have a problem with Todd and the angels manifestations.

    Thank you for answering my question–that being what you thought about Bentley’s teachings on Angels (im assuming you read it all at the link i provided)

    From your response Honesty, you agree with his extra biblical teachings so there is really nothing more to say to you or add.

    I only hope some day you will truly take the time to sit down with your bible, pray, and compare these heretical teachings to the word of God: i truly mean that.

    God bless….

  17. You say God would “never” do something, how do you know that? Just because you have worked in deliverance and seen someone do that…..does not mean God could not use Todd to demonstrate his power and Lion nature. OK but just ‘what if’ Todd did need deliverance, does that mean his teachings are false?

    You use scripture to justify your opinions. Angels are all through the Scripture. Heresy is denying the main points of doctrine, Who God is, the gift of salvation, etc. When you hurl accusations at Todd based on second hand reports or unusual manifestations you are judging by outward appearances. I have said it before, my friends who are pastors and work with Todd know him and I also have another pastor friend and her husband who sat through an entire week down at Lakeland and said that Todd preached straight Bible the entire time and there were salvations, healings, and wonderful miracles. So you are wrong about Todd.

    I hope you will sit down sometime and pray God will show you Himself whether what is happening at Lakeland is from Him. I did, and He said it was. This is a big test and the test is love and unity.

  18. You say God would “never” do something, how do you know that?

    Because i know the Lord whom i serve and his character by having spent the past 28 years reading my bible..He does not change.

    Just because you have worked in deliverance and seen someone do that…..does not mean God could not use Todd to demonstrate his power and Lion nature.

    First it was not just ’some one’ it was many…secondly its not what i’ve seen which absolutely convinces me that God’s Holy Spirit would not have us acting like animals, its knowing from the bible the character and fruit of the Holy Spirit. No where can we find in the bible that the Spirit of God will cause God’s people to be crawling on the floor, howling like wolves, barking like dogs, or roaring like lions.

    Although there is one instance in which God caused a man to act like an animal: it was in the case of Nebuchadnezzar, but understand my friend, this was JUDGMENT sent by God upon this King-:

    All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

    While the word was in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws. Daniel 4

    OK but just ‘what if’ Todd did need deliverance, does that mean his teachings are false?

    If Todd or you [or I] are continuing to be greatly influenced by demons how can we trust any teaching which comes out of your, my, or Todd’s mouth? The point is we cannot and shouldn’t. AND because we can’t always know for sure by just being around a person what spirit may be operating, we are told to TEST and Try the spirits to see if they be of God. We do that by comparing the teaching with the word of God.

    You use scripture to justify your opinions.

    What else are we to use, experiences, signs and wonders, “new extra biblical revelations”?

    And its not my opinions…its only pointing to the only opinion which should matter–and that is God’s. And his opinions are found in the bible. Its as simple as that.

    Heresy is denying the main points of doctrine

    Heresy is lying about God and his character: Its another ‘gospel’ another ‘Jesus’ ‘another’ so-called truth which goes against the word of God. Heresy is that which distorts God and who he is.

    When you hurl accusations at Todd based on second hand reports or unusual manifestations you are judging by outward appearances.

    no one has hurled anything or anyone; what they have done is study and research Todds teachings and beliefs. And should we as christians NOT do that? Who cares what the guy looks like…but we better care what he teaches.

    I hope you will sit down sometime and pray God will show you Himself whether what is happening at Lakeland is from Him.

    Did do that–its not a God sent movement.

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity- Mt 7:22-23

  19. Well you are still wrong. You need to go to Lakeland and see for yourself before you broadcast your opinions about a poor man’s spirituality all over the internet. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, the Bible tells us.

  20. Well you are still wrong.

    Do you hear yourself..?

    Look through all your comments, have you pointed to anything in the word of God to back up what you say? No dear you haven’t. All you come back with (every time) is ‘I know’ ‘you are wrong-this is a movement of God-Todd Bentley is teaching the truth’ etc etc etc…

    This is what is happening Honesty–not just with you but with anyone who posts in defense of this ‘movement’ or of Todd’s teachings: Scripture is totally ignored.

    Do you realize that when you pass over or ignore scripture which is pointed out to try to show you truth, you are in fact choosing to ignore or discount God? This is his word we’re talking about. Jesus IS the Word!

    The day is going to arrive my friend when the word of God (in our hearts) may be what we will have to rely totally upon.

    Greater deception is on its way–i know that because the bible tells us this. If you or anyone else will not give heed to the word of God now, what are you going to do when things are worse?

    I pray for all the people who visit here, almost every day. But i especially lift up those whom i have seen totally ignore any scriptures which are given to them not only by myself, but by others who have taken the time to look them up, in hopes of helping another..

    I am not your enemy nor am i an enemy of Todd Bentley. If i did not love the body of Christ, which includes you, i would not take the time to continually reply back to you–trying to show you [with God's word] that we cannot accept false doctrines because of the dangers it opens us up to, and that we cannot go by our feelings about the person, even if they are ‘nice people’…

    Try to understand that.

    God bless you..

  21. I will make no more comments, since you felt you had to erase my last post.

  22. Honesty,

    If you noticed, i held on to it for a few days….i was trying to decide if releasing it would have furthered the discussion or not. I even considered writing you personally…

    After the few days i decided we were at a stand still my friend: we were, in going back and forth, talking ‘passed’ each other, and it was fruitless to continue.

    I hope that doesn’t keep you from reading and/or responding to other topics here at the blog.

    God bless…

    pj

  23. Charismatic people might argue that love and the so-called, gift, could exist side by side in Charismatic churches. They might argue that Charismatic people have more love than non-Charismatic people since their love extends even to every household since they exercise miraculous healings publicly so as many people could be healed from their illnesses. Not only that, they could even take that opportunity to preach to non-Christians through rallies. They could even condemn non-Charismatic churches since they are not so actively involved in preaching as compared to Charismatic churches.

    John Calvin spoke in tongues. Acts 2:8-10, “And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, Medes….” From the above verses, we know that tongues are indeed languages and/or dialects. Do you know whether John Calvin spoke in foreign languages and/or dialects? If you could not prove whether he spoke in languages and/or dialects, we could not ascertain whether John Calvin was speaking in tongues or he just speaks nonsensical words. Bear in mind, tongues in the book of Acts are languages/dialects. If a person speaks not in foreign languages/dialects, he simply speaks garbage and not in tongues.

    1 Corinthians 14;21, “in the law it is written, ‘With (men of) other tongues and other lips will I speak with this people and yet for all that will they not hear me’, saith the Lord.” As the phrase, other tongues, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:21 with the phrase, I speak with this people, it implies that tongues are definitely languages and/or dialects or else how God could converse with us then.

    1 Corinth 14:2, “for that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth (him)…”. For 1 Corinth 14:4, “He that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue edifieth himself…”. For instance, if tongues are not languages and/or dialects and it cannot be understood by the speaker, how the tongues could edify the speaker himself since 1 Corinth 14:4 mentions that tongues have to edify the speaker.

    1 Corinth 14:10, “There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them (is) without significant.” As the phrase, many kind of voices, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:10 with the phrase, the world, it definitely refers to languages and/or dialects in the world instead of outside the world, ie. alien language. McArthur claimed to have other tongues that could not be understood by human beings are not biblical.

    What if the so-called, tongues, in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the comment that their tongues are from God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ would cause one to abuse the name of them and it in turn blasphemes any one of them.

    1 Corinth 14;14, “For if I pray in an (unknown) tongue pray that he may interpret”. The above verse demands a tongue spoker to pray for his understanding of tongues. 1 Corinth 14;37, “If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord”. The phrase, the things that I write to you, in 1 Corinth 14:37 is in present tense and it implies that the words that Paul just delivered for his message to the Church of Corinthians is indeed God’s commandment and this includes 1 Corinth 14:14.

    1 Corinth 14:15, “What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with understanding also; I will sing with Spirit, and I will sing with understanding also.” For instance, the speaker could not understand the tongue, how could they sing and pray with understanding and this contradicts 1 Corinth 14:15.

  24. HOLY LAUGHER, HOLY BARK, HOLY DRUNKARD & ETC.

     Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament

    DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK

    blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily ‘defamation’ or ‘evil-speaking’in general; ‘a word of evil omen’, hence, ‘impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

    HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES

    In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.

    ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS

    Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too.

    THE  WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23

    Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!”
    What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are:
    1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD”. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then.
    2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?”
    3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me”.

    THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE

    This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God.  For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation.

  25. I’ve only just come across this thread which was posted exactly a year ago. I don’t know if Honesty is ever likely to come back to re-visit her comments, but I wonder what she’ll be thinking now about her above posts one year on. With the emergence of ABC Nightlife’s exposure, the proof of the 32 resurrection’s being false and the adultery and divorce of Todd Bentley, one would hope and pray that she lives up to her blog name of ‘Honesty’ and repents of being so deceived.
    Just to think that while Todd was in full flow at Lakeland, dishing out ‘the glory’ he was stepping off the platform into the waiting arms ( and bed) of his childrens nanny.
    Honesty, if you do ever come back here, may you have the courage to re-tract what you once believed, and declare the TRUTH about the demonic activity that took place.

    • Wow, it has been a year! It doesn’t seem that long ago…

      This is just one of many threads in which people defended Todd and what was occurring [then] at Lakeland. I too have wondered about all the people who posted here in those threads…wondering what happened to them, how they were affected when the truth came out, etc..

      Recogniser of TRUTH, not a one of them ever returned here.

  26. Well pj I find it really sad when people cannot admit to being wrong. We were ALL wrong before the saw the wonderful light of the Lord Jesus Christ. Todd Bentley and the Lakeland debacle caused a measure of friction with a couple of my own family members. Although very close, we had to ‘button our lips’ for many months. PRAISE GOD last christmas they saw for themselves and it turned out to be really helpful because until then they fawned over Benny Hinn and God TV in general. Now they are seeing the whole folly of the lot of them, and are not ashamed to say so.

    I do agree with you about how fast that year has gone by. Yikes I am a whole year older :(

  27. If my guessing is not wrong, contemporary Charismatic churches might have abused 1 Corinth 14:2 to be interpreted as some tongues to be alien languages so as to suit their practice:
    1 Corinth 14:2, “for that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth (him), howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”.
    Meditate carefully the above verse again since the phrase, an (unknown) tongue, is mentioned as above. For instance, if the phrase, no man understandeth (him), in 1 Corinth 14:2 is to be interpreted as alien language, the interpretation would turn up to be in hay wire for the fact that nobody could understand tongues speaking and this interpretation definitely contadicts Acts 2 that mentions that the disciples spoke in foreign languages (tongues). Bear in mind that the phrase, an (unknown) tongue, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:2 instead of the phrase, some tongues. For instance, if the phrase, some tongues, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:2, one could argue that some tongues are in alien languages and some are in foreign languages/dialects. However, the phrase, an (unknown) tongue, is mentioned here.

    The following are the proves that angels speak in human languages instead of alien languages or else how the people could understand what angels speak:
    Genesis 16:9, “And the angel of the Lord said unto her…”
    Luke 1:30, “And the angel said unto her, Mary…”
    For instance, if angels speak in alien languages, how could the examples above show that angels ever spoke to human beings? As angels did convey message to human beings in human languages, that proves that angels speak in human languages instead of in alien language.

    The alternative interpretation of 1 Corinth 14:2 that would not contradict the tongue as mentioned in 1 Corinthian 14:
    1 Corinth 14:2, “for that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth (him), howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”. The word, mysteries, in 1 Corinth 14:2 should not refer to the general conversation between God and men. Instead, it could refer to the message pertaining to the mysteries in heaven and/or God and/or angels and/or whatsoever. Human beings might not be able to comprehend the tongues (languages) if they are in mysteries and/or in parable forms. This is the same as when Jesus was on earth when he commented about the mysteries in heaven in the form of parables, nobody could understand it and not even the twelve disciples. As it is a mysteries that are delivered through tongues, these are tongues spoken with God through the speakers

  28. Some might argue that Paul makes it clear that some tongues by the Spirit are unknown, or Tongues of angels, meaning that it is an intimate prayer between the man and God.
    From the explanation, if my guessing of your understanding is correct for the interpetation of 1 Corinth 14:2, the phrase, no man understand (him), in 1 Corinth 14:2 has been interpreted as some tongues cannot be comprehended. However, bear in mind the phrase, speaketh in an…tongue, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:2 instead of the phrase, speaketh in some…tongue. As the phrase, speaketh in an…tongue, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:2, it implies that all kinds of tongues instead of restricting in certain kinds of tongues. For instance, if you interpet the phrase, no man understand (him), in 1 Corinth 14;2 as nobody could undestand his tongue, the inrepretation would turn up to be all the tongues would not be understood since 1 Corinth 14:2 does not restrict itself to some tongues but the phrase, an (unknown) tongue, is mentioned and that, it contradicts Acts 2 that mentions that tongues are in languages too.

  29. My reasoning is simply that for instance, if the so-called, tongues speaking, the gift of prophecy, the gift of Word of Knowledge, the gift of wisdom, and etc., in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God, they would have warned all Christians among their Churches not to interpret the book of prophecy especially the book of Revelation.

    They refer Rev 6 and 8:1-2 to be the first half of tribulation; and the Great Tribulation to be for Rev 8; 9, 11:15 as well as Rev 15:16. Pre-tribulation supports that Christians will be raptured before Rev 6 since they believe that Christians would not go through tribulation; Post-tribulation supports that Chrstians would be raptured after Rev 16 and perhaps in Rev 20; mid-tribulation assumes that Christians would be raptured in the middle of the book of Rev. All these interpretations have indeed abused the book of Revelation in which Rev 22:18-19 command us not to add words in the book of Prophecy and yet the so-called, manifestation of the Holy Spirit in contemporary Charismatic Churches, should have warned Christians not to violate the book of Revelation on the condition if their so-called, gifts, are from God. As mentioned in the Scripture, the Holy Spirit will guide us for the truth of the Scripture and yet the so-called, gifts, in current world do not correct the mistakes in interpreting the book of Revelation, there is a question whether the so-called, gifts, in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God. What if in God’s interpretation that Christians would be raptured in Rev 6 instead of Rev 20, our insisting the support that God would be raptured in Rev 6 would have added words into God’s mouth for the comment that Christians would be raptured at that time even though Rev 6 does not mention Christians would be raptured at that time. The same are for mid- and post-tribulation too. They even relate Rev 12:3, 13 to be the rise of Antichrist. Nothing is mentioned in the book of Rev 12:3, 13 that the so-called, 666, is the antichrist and yet one has related the word, antichrist, in 1 John 1 to be that is mentioned in Rev 12:3, 13. What if God’s interpretation for Rev 12:3, 13 not to be an antichrist instead of some other thing, the insisting that Rev 12:3, 13 have undoubtedly added words into God’s mouth that Rev 12:3, 13 were the antichrist.

    Rev 22:18-19, “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of this prophecy of book…” As the phrase, this prophecy of book, in Rev 22:18-19 is in singular tense, it implies a single book instead of other books and it certainly refers to the book of Revelation undoubtedly.

    Some might relate Daniel 2:42-44 for the rise of the antichrist and that would occur during the tribulation and that falls within Rev 6-16. The word, antichrist, is not spelt out clearly in the book of Revelation. The insisting that antichrist would come during Rev 6-16 has undoubtedly added words into God’s mouth what if God’s interpretation of the prophecy is not in this way but in other alternative way.

    For instance, if one relates Rev 22:18-19 to be in broader term and this incudes other prophecy in the Bible too. To interpret Daniel 2:42-44 to be the rise of antichrist would certainly act against Rev 22:18-19 since one has added words into Daniel 2:42-44 especially the word, antichrist, is not mentioned in Daniel 2:42-44. One has simply related the word, antichrist, from 1 John 1 to Daniel 2:42-44. What if God’s interpretation of Daniel 2:42-44 not to be antichrist, one has added words into God’s mouth to force him to accept this interpretation.

  30. 1) The following are the proves that angels could perform miracles healing and there are falling angels in the Scripture to be against God too:

    John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”

    2) The following are the proves that Angels could perform marvellous wonders:

    Luke 1:7, “And they had no child, because that Elizabeth was barren and they both were now well stricken in years.” Luke 1:13, “but the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for their prayer is heard; and they wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John”. Luke 1:18, “And Zacharias said unto the angel, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my life well stricken in years.” Luke 1:19, “And THE ANGEL ANSWERING UNTO HIM, I AM GRABRIEL…” Luke 1:20, “AND BEHOLD, THOU SHALL BE DUMB, AND NOT ABLE TO SPEAK, UNTIL THE DAY THAT THESE THINGS SHALL BE PERFORMED, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” Luke 1:22, “And when he came out, HE COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO THEM”.

    Matthews 28:1-2, “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Many Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And, behold, THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, FOR AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, AND ROLLED BACK THE STONE OF THE DOOR, and sat it.”

    Acts 12:23, “Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”

    3) Angels could appear in somebody’s dream:

    Matthews 2:19, “…an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph…”; Matthew 1:20, “…an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream…”

    As angels could perform wonders, are there any strongest proves to show that those wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God? If someone in contemporary Charismatic Church could prove it, we have to accept it. However, if nobody could prove whether the existence of wonder in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God or the Holy Spirit or Angels, there is a danger that one would comment that certain wonders are from God or from the Holy Spirit or from Jesus Christ and, in case if they are not and it would turn up that we have forced God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit to bear the name of doer and indirectly we have abused the name of Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit and this causes us to speak against Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit indirectly.

    Could contemporary Charismatic Church claim that the miracles and wonder they perform in the name of Jesus Christ, is accompanied by correct teaching (in accordance with God’s Word) and righteous living?

    A good Christian performs a wonder through the name of Jesus Christ in the Church. Many audiences would claim that this be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit. As fallen angels could perform wonders, i.e. Buddhists could perform wonders as it is listed in the Internet too. What if the wonders in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, the surrounding audience that claims to be the work of the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus Christ, would have indirectly abused the name of each of them even though they might not be the one to do it and it indirectly causes the defamation of the name of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit and they might have grieved as a result of the whole church speaking against them since they might not do it. The abusing of the name of Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit/God would cause the audience to commit continual sins as when and they address these be the work of God.

    Can a Christian or a Catholics claim that he has followed the correct teaching and righteous living when day by day and month by month and year by year seeing people keep on claiming the wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit without telling them the danger that they would have sinned against God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit what if the so-called, wonders, might not be their work then?

    For holy bark, you could see people running around the churches crazily to bark here and there.

    For Holy laughter, you could see people laugh without stopping.

    For manifestation of the Spirit, you see people roll from one place to another without knowing what he/she has done after performing.

    All these are not mentioned in the book of Acts.

    A number of people in the church mention that they receive revelation from God through words of knowledge, prophecy, tongues speaking, words of wisdom. Many prophets arose previously claimed that year 2000 and 1987 were the end of the world. However, the year before year 2000 and 1987, none of these people that claim to receive so-called, special gifts of the Holy Spirit, say that these years 2000 and 1987 are not the end of the world. If it is the work of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit should have informed all these people to correct their mistakes.

    LUKE 9:49-50 ABOUT THOSE THAT DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS BUT COULD PERFORM WONDERS IN JESUS’ NAME

    Luke 9:49, 50 (TCNT), “Hereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”

    Were these people that were mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 to be the disciples of Jesus since it is mentioned that they did not follow Jesus?

    The following are the verses to prove that God’s people would surely follow Jesus:

    John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

    John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out”.

    From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.

    As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.
    Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following Jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.

    CASTING OUT DEMONS MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY CAUSE ONE TO HAVE DISTURBED BY DEMONS AS MENTIONED IN ACTS 19:13-16:

    Matthew 17:15-16, “Lord have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.” Matthew 17:18-19, “And Jesus rebuked the devil and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, ‘Why could not we cast him out?’ ” Matthew 17:21, “Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” From these verses, it is obvious that the failure in casting out demons might not necessarily cause one to be disturbed by demons as that is mentioned in Luke 9:49-50.

    PROOF THAT ANGELS COULD PERFORM MIRACULOUS HEALING AND THERE ARE FALLEN ANGELS TOO:

    John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.””

    From John 5:3-4, it shows that angels could heal various kinds of illnesses whether they are blinded, halt and withered. As angels could perform miraculous healings and there are so-called, fallen angels, it is irrational to jump into conclusion that certain illnesses be healed to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit since some wonders might be the work of angels and/or fallen angels.

    One might have quoted Luke 9:49-50 well that nobody should stop those people that perform miracles in Jesus’ name. However, he should meditate Matthew 7:22-23 carefully again that the so-called people to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders might be rejected by the Lord. For instance, if these people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders are the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, there should not be any strong ground for Jesus to reject them. However, Jesus will reject them despite they do perform wonders in Jesus’ name and there is a query the so-called wonders that they perform are from God. The following are the extracts:
    Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!’

    Charismatic people say that they believe in Jesus Christ.  However, they depend mostly on their emotions; their sights of miracles; and whatever they could visualize from their sights.  Whenever they feel and see the existence of some forms of power and they say that there is God.  When they could not see any miracles or wonders or their emotions are down, they say that God is not with them.  They claim that they receive the Holy Spirit due to they say that they feel something passing through their bodies.  All in all they claim that they are saved and yet all these are done through feelings.  According to the Scripture, faith is the substance of hope of what is unseen and/or what would occur in the future. Dependence upon emotions to give comment the existence of God contradicts the principality of faith in the Scripture. Their salvations are in doubt and they might not be saved since salvation is through faith and not feeling.  What good does it bring about if the number of Charismatic churches has been expanding!  Many are non-Christians and a few are true Christians.  Now the underlying problem is we, the true Church, must be strengthened in Biblical knowledge and not to be affected by false teachings.

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