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Joel’s Army: Dominionism, Militancy, & Heresy


Joel’s Army Teachings:

  • They teach the deification of man and deny exclusive deity of God. Proponents of this teaching believe we will be as God and that this army literally BECOMES Christ!
  • They teach and believe in the immortality and glorification of the elect “New Breed” or “Manifested Sons of God” aside from the literal presence of Christ.
  • They believe that scripture is NOT the ONLY source of redemptive truth but rather there is progressive revelation through angelic visitations, dreams, and visions that are discouraged from being examined in the light of scripture.
  • Their agenda is political- they want to take over the world (for Jesus of course) and believe that those in opposition to this should die.

This New Breed is “an elite group of believers endowed with supernatural power that would enable them to be part of the army of “dread warriors” that God was said to be raising up in our generation. According to John Wimber this is a type of “Joel’s Army” who will overcome all opposition to the gospel and eventually subdue the nations. This teaching is part of what is known as “dominion theology” which teaches that an elite army of “overcomers” will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world. The government of the nations will be upon their shoulders and when all the secular authorities, governments, princes and kings have finally submitted to them, Christ will return and they will present the kingdom to him. (Prophecy Today, Vol. 7, No. 1, England)

  • They believe that they will overcome death (not through Christ).

The last enemy to be conquered is death. Who will conquer it? A mature Church will come forth with the kind of authority and power that will be able to stand in the very face of Satan [“Joel’s Army,” ed.]. When the Church reaches that state of maturity, God will be able to say, “This generation of the Church does not need to die. She has reached a place of maturity. I will translate her because her maturity pleases me.” What was the testimony about Enoch? He pleased God. When the Church becomes so mature that as a Body we achieve the unity of faith, God will find her pleasing and say, “She is mature enough now. She doesn’t have to die…” [“Manifest Sons of God,” Paulk – in “The Wounded Body of Christ”]

Who is being glorified in these teachings? The Church! According to these teachers apostles, and prophets, the Church that is now coming forth and being manifest is the coming Christ we’ve been looking for!!  This is not just error it is blasphemy. (from Joel’s Army Now Recruiting – Deception Bytes)

March (2008), at a “Passion for Jesus” conference in Kansas City sponsored by the International House of Prayer, or IHOP, a ministry for teenagers from the heavy metal, punk and goth scenes, Lou Engle called on his audience for vengeance:

“I believe we’re headed to an Elijah/Jezebel showdown on the Earth, not just in America but all over the globe, and the main warriors will be the prophets of Baal versus the prophets of God, and there will be no middle ground,” ….“There’s an Elijah generation that’s going to be the forerunners for the coming of Jesus, a generation marked not by their niceness but by the intensity of their passion,” …”The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. Such force demands an equal response, and Jesus is going to make war on everything that hinders love, with his eyes blazing fire.” (Joel’s Army and The Call)

“An end-time army has one common purpose — to aggressively take ground for the kingdom of God under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Dread Champion,” … “The trumpet is sounding, calling on-fire, revolutionary believers to enlist in Joel’s Army. … Many are now ready to be mobilized to establish and advance God’s kingdom on earth.” (Todd Bentley)

“The pitch and intensity of the military rhetoric of this branch of the global Dominionist movement has substantially increased since the beginning of 2008: One can only wonder how long before this transforms into real warfare with actual warriors.” (Discernment Research Group/Religion News blog)

Joel’s Army believers are hard-core Christian dominionists, meaning they believe that America, along with the rest of the world, should be governed by conservative Christians and a conservative Christian interpretation of biblical law. There is no room in their doctrine for democracy.

“Everyone born after abortion’s legalization can consider their birth a personal invitation to take part in this great army,” (John Crowder from his book, The New Mystics: How to Become Part of the Supernatural Generation. [*a literal how-to guide for joining Joel's Army])

“As the church begins to take on this resolve, they [Joel's Army churches] will start to be thought of more as military bases, and they will begin to take on the characteristics of military bases for training, equipping, and deploying effective spiritual forces; In time, the church will actually be organized more as a military force with an army, navy, air force, etc.” (Rick Joyner “The Warrior Nation — The New Sound of the Church”)

We have individual salvation – but in the nation we have corporate salvation…God’s people are going to start to exercise rule and they’re going to take dominion over the power of Satan. As the rod of his strength goes out of Zion, he will change legislation, he will chase the devil off the face of God’s earth and God’s people will bring about God’s purposes and God’s reign. (MacPherson “Can The Elect Be Deceived” 1986)

The blues and the grays in the church are likened to the American Civil war:

“In dreams and visions blue often represents heavenly-mindedness – the sky is blue – and gray speaks of those who live by the power of their own minds – the brain is often called gray matter – This will be a conflict between those who may be genuine Christians, but who live mostly according to their natural minds and human wisdom, and those who follow the Holy Spirit. ..I do not believe that this [prophecy] can now be stopped, or that the Lord wants it stopped.” (Rick Joyner Morningstar Prophetic Bulletin, 5/96 - Let us Reason)

“I myself feel that God may be calling, equipping, and enabling a relatively small number of Christian leaders to move out in frontline, strategic-level spiritual warfare. And I also believe He is raising up large numbers of Christians to back up these people with moral support, intercession, encouragement, and material resources. God, I think, is in the process of choosing an expanding corps of spiritual green berets ..who will engage in the crucial high-level battles against the rulers of darkness…The cultural mandate, which some refer to as Christian social responsibility goes as far back as the Garden of Eden. After God created Adam and Eve, He said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing… Both the cultural mandate and the evangelistic mandate are essential parts of biblical mission, in my opinion. Neither is optional”- (C. Peter WagnerQuotes & Notes)

*Some quotes from Militant Joel’s Army Followers Seek Theocracy

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36 comments on “Joel’s Army: Dominionism, Militancy, & Heresy

  1. Isn’t it interesting that all of the Apostles of the Lamb suffered, and died? It appears that only John died a natural death, and that by the way of cruel imprisonment and deprivation. Paul suffered numerous floggings, stonings and beatings that often killed other men, and died separated from his head in a Roman dungeon.

    Oh, I almost forgot…they weren’t a part of “Joel’s army!”… they couldn’t have been! They did not exercise dominion over the Nations or Rome.

    But….the Roman Catholic church did. Could there be a similarity in the spirit of the Papists throughout time, in comparison to the NAR apostles and associated wolves? I think yes. The Lamb suffered and died at the hands of wicked and ambitious men who understood that there existence and power could not live in Peace with Him…..He must be murdered; and the only dominion that these struggle with is exactly the same; the meek and lowly Bride of the Lamb….the true and remnant church.

    “There are many anti-Christs in the world.” This means against Jesus and His anointed and Holy Spirit. There lust for dominion is simply this. They, with knowledge or without knowledge are simply of their father the Devil.

    • Good to see you Tom… I was just thinking about you over the weekend.

      Could there be a similarity in the spirit of the Papists throughout time, in comparison to the NAR apostles and associated wolves? I think yes.

      I’ve thought about the similarities also. Its the same spirit, don’t you think? One which seeks to rule over others…

  2. Regarding the “Joel’s Army” mentality: I am not convinced it is harmless.

    Lou Engle & The Call or Ron Luce of Acquire the Fire are indoctrinating youth with a supernatural destiny emphasis that makes them the harbingers of God’s new manifest dominion/government here on earth.

    They are being told they are chosen to display the power of God to bring the world into alignment under divine rulership. They do believe they are to influence current governments/policies/nations with the sign/wonders of God that makes people conform to a new godly standard however it is they perceive it.

    It is a form of religious brainwashing don’t you think? Mix in a dose of fasting/intercession/music/worship, etc. & you can work up quite the religious frenzy with an energized youth.

    Maybe the intent is of a spiritual nature/tone, but they do believe it is to be manifest in this real, earthly realm & they are wield the supernatural powers to bring the world to its knees.

    The extreme prophetic/spiritual warfare youth oriented rallies/conferences/schools/organizations that mix extreme religious disciplines (fasting, intercession, rejection of worldly ways, etc.) with dominion themed teachings do not actually deliver on the acquisition of real supernatural power to become God’s Power Rangers for their generation. I do not believe that is what God’s priority or purpose truly is for the church age as we experience it now. However, there is a level of high expectation placed on young impressionable minds that is not harmless. They have leaders telling them they are the chosen ones. The elect. The Benjamin generation (my label regarding the youngest & most favored). They are the apple of God’s eye & He has waited all these centuries to unleash this newly empowered faithful to usher in God’s reign & rule over all earthly powers.

    The letdown factor has to be enormous for those kids that soberly realize (not remain in denial) that they do not meet the qualifications of being specially empowered. They realize their human nature is definitely more real than the super-spiritual status that is supposed to bring it & the world under submission. They compare their fervor to the other hyped-up types & after awhile recognize they are not like them. Such an emphasis on hyper-spirituality creates an unhealthy hierarchy of elitism. Most kids cannot be so super spiritual all the time. And the special attention given to those kids that manifest some gifting or meet the qualities the organization cherishes makes the chasm between the few haves with the majority of have-nots only more glaring.

    Many young people will be crushed, wounded, injured, rejected & ultimately left with no safety net within their ultra-religious world. They discover they were not really chosen or gifted or specially anointed with divine power to perform miracles. They grow up. Enter their late 20’s & realize either God passed them over or else they must reject the teachings & peer group/organization they wholeheartedly embraced.

    And then there are the John Hagee types that are actively involved in politics & want the good ol’ USA to be the hammer of God to the rest of the world. Protect Israel at all costs! Hell, nuke Iran & usher in Armageddon! Get Jesus back here now! Damn the rest of humanity since they are safe within their theological bomb shelter out there in San Antonio, TX. Scary really. Not at all harmless IMHO. Just how far will some wacked out Christian go that actually does believe they are the kingpin to God’s end time plans? Harmless? I think not… :(

    • I don’t believe this is all harmless either, but not just for the reason you mentioned here. There is a real spiritual power at work in the world today that is not of God. If that power is working though these young people at some point, that could be a real problem.

    • cheryl U.:

      As a former member of the prophetic/charismatic camps that did espouse a Dominionist viewpoint (there are degrees of this thought), I have seen first hand the disappointment/confusion factor more so than the ‘evil’ power you are concerned with.

      I have had enough experience in the churches I’ve attended that I will not discount at all demonic influences. I do believe in evil, be that of a spiritual nature or the corruption of human nature. I do not, however, fear the wholesale possession of any group of young people by demonic forces. I do not fear a demon under every rock or those waiting to leap upon the unwary. We are not to be unwise regarding the wiles of the evil one, but neither are we to exaggerate the devil’s power, influence, reputation, jurisdiction, ability to manifest, etc. Here is how Jesus taught about spiritual warfare:

      “…And lead us not into temptation;
      but deliver us from evil.”

      Or, deliver us from all manner of evil; the evil one without (devil) & the evil (sin) within…

      No need to do demonic mapping (another topic discussed already). No need to engage in territorial battles or generational curses. No need to give the devil anymore attention than Jesus did. No need to be paranoid about demonic conspiracy, secret doings or widespread imp infestations. The major problem with the Joel’s Army stuff is the over-inflated esoteric claims made by those promoting it. It will be the sad realization for many disenfranchised youth down the road. They will grow cynical & less willing to be excited about the things of God if not accompanied by the make-believe power from on high they were promised. I hope they find a soft place to land where they can be accepted & encouraged & strengthened to pursue a more sober-minded faith journey…

    • Joseph,

      I am a former member of the charismatic/prophetic camps too. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the confusion and disillusionment can be huge–no argument there.

      However, I also saw way too much while there that I think had some other explanation behind it than simply the human factor. And those involved certainly believed that it was spiritual influence causing a lot of it. That is the influence that I believe that if the Lord allows it, can cause a lot of problems in these groups. Only time will tell how it all plays out obviously.

  3. These people that cry war have need of one themselves because they fail to look at the ‘war’ raging in their own hearts.

    The fact that they use the ‘christian mantel’ to legitimize their need shows me they are charlatans and seekers of hate not hope.

    Man is drowning in the blood of so many wars that the streets are clothed in it and the desire for more makes me feel that they have not considered the long term consequences of such actions. If we want a ‘next generation’ to have some kind of hope we must stop planting hate and the pulpit is as guilty as any in its cry for dominionism and ‘the whole world being christians’.

    Who do they think they are. A missuse of the power of their title (preacher) and a missuse of the pulpit.

    Americas prophetic will be its own downfall (theres so much of it that in the end no one will believe it anymore: Baby out with the bath water syndrome).

    They/we need to ‘clean up’ where wev’e been before the debt of war gets greater and we loose sight of hope, salvation, and the only one in the fathers heart who gifts it

  4. The manifested sons teaching has been around for 30 or more years. But the top 3 things you attribute to them are ridiculous. The last one dominionism might have some truth.

    But some great fundamentalist preachers have taught it also. With Dr.’s degrees in theology.

    Come on.
    Denying deity of God?
    Get serious.

    How can people take you seriously when you say such things with no attribution.
    I’ve been around the prophetic people for 20 years and for 20 years they have taught that all prophecy must be judged in light of scripture.

    Maybe you can find one. But that doesn’t disprove 10 fundamentalist believers that believe what the bible says, all creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    They believe this or that you say and I don’t believe any of it.
    That disproves your theory.

    • Daniel,

      Should it matter that you claim some which have taught this perverted form of the gospel have degrees in theology? Do their degrees make it truth? No…

      I’d suggest doing a deep study on the Joels Army/Manifest sons of God teachings [and doctrines], along with those who promote it.

      There are some links posted on both the ‘ology’ and ‘Church infected’ pages at the top,… check them out.

  5. Joe,

    hmmmmm?

    You wrote:::> “….They are being told they are chosen to display the power of God to bring the world into alignment under divine rulership….”

    What?

    Has God abdicated His Throne or His “Divine Rulership”, ever? No, I think not. What this teaching is is dangerous and it opens up the fertile minds of the less disciplined or trained youth in the patience of the Saints offing for something more dramatic and spectacular and quick, rather than this, suffering long:::>

    Rom 5:3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
    Rom 5:4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
    Rom 5:5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
    Rom 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

    or how about this exhortation:::>

    2Ti 2:3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

    Here is what our Christian young people need inculcated into their spirits, and please note verse “three”:::>

    Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
    Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

    God is still on His Throne and He still has all the bases covered!

    What the Lou Engle and Ron Luce types fail to communicate at their gatherings is the Truth about the veil of the Temple being rent in two from top to bottom and what that means when one makes a claim as you have above.

    What you hear from their exhortations is “what you are to do for God as Joel’s Army” to be apart of Joel’s Army. Rather, here is the Truth. The Lord was bound up “inside” the Holy of Holies of the Temple. Now that it is rent, He is now freely outside and in the world and on the move seeking and saving the lost chosen from every tribe, kindred, tongue and nation.

    I did not seek the Lord. I did not love the Lord. He chose me and He has loved me into submission to His Divine Rule and Authority!

    These young people are being filled with lies and half truths and not the Truth!

    “….They are being told they are chosen to display the power of God to bring the world into alignment under divine rulership….”

    Again, “NO”, God has not abdicated His “Divine Rulership” in this world. He has not and He will not, not for you or me or for ten thousand teenagers gathered together to sing His High Praise at the Arco Arena in Sacramento, Ca.; that’s where I experienced “acquire the fire”. The only thing I acquired was deafness because the noise was so loud inside!

    • michael:

      You commented: These young people are being filled with lies and half truths and not the Truth!

      “…They are being told they are chosen to display the power of God to bring the world into alignment under divine rulership…”

      Again, “NO”, God has not abdicated His “Divine Rulership” in this world.

      Not sure why this caught your attention, but my point being this: the youth subjected to the Joel’s Army paradigm are told they indeed will ‘manifest’ God’s Divine Rulership thru signs+wonders & actually be the ones to take over earthly governments as their divine right. They either become the new government leaders or make those governments submit to them because of their supra-natural powers that can command nature to withhold rain or punish them somehow.

      God has not abdicated anything as far as I know, nor did I imply He did. Yet, the kingdom is not of this world & does not include a new theocracy or the taking over of any earthly governments (neo-Christendom?). That is not the goal of The Church or of any saint as far as I know. Jesus is the prime example of dealing with the spiritual components of “The Kingdom” vs. earthly governments, i.e. Rome in His day, so whatever the Joel’s Army advocates are peddling is pure snake oil. Or, locust oil in this case…

      Any sober review of the book of Joel knows that the great & terrible army mentioned is God’s punishment of Israel, not any grandiose super-empowered blitzkrieg force ordained to conquer all earthly powers in the name of God. That is what Dominionism hopes to accomplish: the whole earth subjected to the rulership of uber-saints that will turn over the reins of rulership to the rightful King of Kings upon His return. Whatever God is doing in the earth will not be using a locust army to bring it about.

      Whenever extreme religion gets mixed up with earthly politics it only breeds disaster for The Church. We must be mindful of Church history & what has been done before that hamstrung the kingdom. The Church getting bogged down in the affairs of governments/politics is the sidelining that makes it impotent in the world it is meant to be salt+light in.

    • Joe,

      I quite agree.

      In your reply: “….Not sure why this caught your attention, but my point being this: the youth subjected to the Joel’s Army paradigm are told they indeed will ‘manifest’ God’s Divine Rulership thru signs+wonders & actually be the ones to take over earthly governments as their divine right….”

      The irony is, you, by your reply, are in fact “manifesting” God’s Divine Rulership on earth. You are “setting” things in order. Your response is a good example of it, too!

      Albeit, I do not sense any fire or brimstone with cracks in the air or flashes coming into this room I am sitting in, from the East to the West or an earthquake shaking the ground now that I reply to your reply to my reply to your point, nor is my laptop computer doing crazy things because the power of your words is so full of force internal components of the computer are now short circuiting overwhelmed with your anointing. :)

      If the earth quakes as you read this, let me know! :)

      The Apostle Peter, when inculcating his disciples wrote this:

      1Pe 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
      1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.
      1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
      1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
      1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
      1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
      1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

      King Solomon wrote this:

      Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.

      Which is “fruit”, signs and wonders that dazzle the dumb or these Words of Wisdom?:::>

      Psa 34:11 Come, O children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
      Psa 34:12 What man is there who desires life and loves many days, that he may see good?
      Psa 34:13 Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
      Psa 34:14 Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
      Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous and his ears toward their cry.
      Psa 34:16 The face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth.
      Psa 34:17 When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles.
      Psa 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.
      Psa 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all.

      Do not get me wrong, I am all for signs and wonders when it is the Lord’s Spirit or the Holy Ghost accomplishing as much as they accomplished when They were doing them or through Peter or Paul.

      When you go beyond the Word of God, you have just left Christ and entered into a demonic world!

      In concluding my remarks, I leave off with John’s admonition to underscore that point:

      2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
      2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
      2Jn 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
      2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

    • The irony is, you, by your reply, are in fact “manifesting” God’s Divine Rulership on earth. You are “setting” things in order. Your response is a good example of it, too!

      Albeit, I do not sense any fire or brimstone with cracks in the air or flashes coming into this room I am sitting in, from the East to the West or an earthquake shaking the ground now that I reply to your reply to my reply to your point, nor is my laptop computer doing crazy things because the power of your words is so full of force internal components of the computer are now short circuiting overwhelmed with your anointing.

      If the earth quakes as you read this, let me know!

      michael:

      Okay, okay, I get it now. :)

      No. No earthquakes or power surges to report. Nope. Not convinced my words have any great authority to set right theological perspectives I happen to disagree with. No supra-anointment to wield willy-nilly or to do my bidding upon the earth…

      I can accept the possibility that God could indeed ZAP someone with supernatural ability that rivaled anything manifest in the Old or New Testament. Not sure about the ‘new’ things being claimed today by the extreme prophetic/apostolic/charismatic groups though. Seems they will include any odd manifestation as Holy Spirit sourced, but any skeptic is labeled a naysayer if they question it. Common sense says if it is questionable, odd, quirky, disputable, testable, then rejecting it the safest course. No need to be labeled as despising prophecy or being a heresy hunter or a grey coat or a Pharisee or a cessationist or the doctrine police, etc. Exercising ‘discernment’ & testing everything, even every spirit, is to be encouraged, not squelched. As a post-charismatic I am not against spiritual gifts, there proper function/use or divine miracles, just the craziness associated with them. All the exaggerations (lies), false claims (lies), silly antics/behavior, carnival atmosphere, peddling the miraculous, stage personalities, inflated titles/offices, spurious commissioning/ordaining, etc. all in the name of God is wrong. All that stuff brings a reproach on the true expressions of the miraculous & sullies God’s reputation in the eyes of unbelievers. It also causes the very division they claim is unholy, but it is their fault.

      Okay, enough of my soapbox rant. I’ve spouted off more than necessary…

    • Joseph, Very good summary. My thoughts , exactly. Thanks for your comments.

    • Joe,

      you responded:::> “….Not sure about the ‘new’ things being claimed today by the extreme prophetic/apostolic/charismatic groups though. Seems they will include any odd manifestation as Holy Spirit sourced, but any skeptic is labeled a naysayer if they question it….”

      Also equally ironic is this from Scripture of the “Nature and Character” of Jesus when He was being challenged about His Authority that seems to underscore your rants are directed in the right place:::>

      Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

      Anyone ever heard this as Basic Bible Doctrine?:::>

      Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
      Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
      Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
      Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
      Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

      Those verses from Romans cited were in response to your specific words here of your above quote quoted: “….Seems they will include any odd manifestation as Holy Spirit sourced, but any skeptic is labeled a naysayer if they question it….”

  6. It’s been said if you want to fool someone, distract them first. Take their focus off what is really happening and then you can get them so concerned about something else that they’ll lose sight of the real problem.

    After coming out of the charismatic fringe years ago, and being stunned how far off with the Bible they really are, I can see this is not about ‘Christian’ dominionism at all but just another greedy grab for human power, with God’s name on it to make it more palatable to the masses.

    It’s all for our own good good you know, (heavy sarcasm) just like some of the other political ploys nowadays to ‘save’ our economy. The foxes being in charge of the henhouse kind of thing.

  7. http://www.kingdomeconomicsummit.com/

    Would this type of conference count as dominionism? The guest list is a who’s who of false teachers and “prophets” imho….

  8. To be honest, Joel’s army theology to me is not more sickening than Pentecostalism. I used to be pentecostal, though I was a failed one who could never “get into the spirit” no matter how hard I tried. It just seems to me that all this theology, all these prophecies and visions and dreams, it is all shallow and empty. I question my faith in it. I question my belief in these things… I don’t think that I will ever experience what all these people harp on and on about. Perhaps it is because I am too evil?

    • Ricardo:

      You state: I used to be pentecostal, though I was a failed one who could never “get into the spirit” no matter how hard I tried. It just seems to me that all this theology, all these prophecies and visions and dreams, it is all shallow and empty. I question my faith in it. I question my belief in these things…I don’t think that I will ever experience what all these people harp on and on about. Perhaps it is because I am too evil?

      Too evil? I do hope you were being facetious…

      I too wanted to prove/test the prophetic ‘gift’ as it was being promoted during my involvement in the movement. I was taught that “everyone can prophesy!” Which usually was ‘interpreted’ as: “everyone can be a Prophet!” So you were told that God not only wanted to speak thru you to others, He wanted to give you a direct line to the Throne Room complete with high-def display screens for dreams+visions. What happened in the small church I attended then (~150 members) was this: the most dysfunctional, hurting, wounded saints would be drawn to the claims made by the prophetic camps. They wanted to be confirmed+verified forthtellers of God’s inner secrets. It was empowering. Heady. Intoxicating. It was true ‘power’ they never experienced before & their new found ‘importance’ was nothing more than an idol made of wood, hay, stubble, straw…

      There was much ‘personal prophecy’ spewed forth. Much grandiose forthtelling of divine destinies far exceeding the scope of that little church in the town/area it was in. Lots of spiritualizing of words, terms, concepts, etc. that stretched the common meaning so much it literally became nonsense & useless. My test was this: if God was really interested in revealing deep secrets about others, then He would begin with all the problems, hurts, issues, etc. of the person thinking themselves a new prophet.

      Nope. God was not revealing anything in need of real deep spiritual healing/correction. That make-believe prophetic mantle was being used to cover up all the deep stuff needing to be addressed. The wounded ones now prancing about speaking gobbledy-gook to those they assaulted whenever they were turned loose in a service. Ouch. All because they were told they too could ‘prophesy’…

      I could not begin to distinguish my own ‘spirit’ from the Holy Spirit that was supposedly the source of all this prophetic insight. I did not have trances. Did not have audible words spoken to me. No visions. No dramatic words of knowledge meant to shock the hearer. No dirty stuff unveiled in another’s life. No forthtelling of dramatic future events that left all others in awe of my insight. Since I did get official training & attended some of the prophetic conferences/events promoted by the movers/shakers of the movement, it became more obvious to me as time went on that these supposed gifted types were really unlike me (thank God!). And that was the Holy Spirit’s confirmation to me that most, if not all, of the Prophetic Movement stuff was not of Him. I had a sensitive discernment of spiritual matters before I jumped into the prophetic & since I did not acquire any more super-duper spiritual ability I exited the movement quickly & never looked back. No sane, sober, observant saint would give any credence to the plethora of contrary ‘words’ given by every Jane & Joe Schmo prophet that had a ministry or submitted their insight to the Elijah List. If you truly believed every one of those ‘words’ were from God, you could only conclude the Holy Spirit was really schizophrenic! Either God was not making any sense from all that babbling, or those self-appointed sages were sorely mistaken.

      It was far easier to determine there was no need to even sift through all the prophetic stuff spewed forth in any one day to discover a nugget of truth in it. How insane! Add to that the disparate condition of the greater Body of Christ & there is no way one person could speak to the entire Church a prophetic pronouncement. The function of Old Testament Prophet not at all the New Testament gift of prophecy Paul spoke of in his epistles. God would be seriously deficient if He attempted to do it the way today’s modern prophet/apostle types claim He is doing. And anyone with an ounce of discernment can dismiss it all as rubbish without ever wading through any of it…

  9. Who did Hitler target for his hell to come.

    Youth.

    Fertile minds, a willingness and hope of belonging to some great cause was how he tempted them. You will be glorious was the call.

    Now I hesitate to use the above but I have recently witnessed some so called , men of god giving the same kind of rhetoric to the youth among them and this seems to be the way they are leading some of the congregations.

    I have to say that I have also witnessed a complete lack of reverence for the Father in some of the ‘goings on’ among the churches. This along with the targeting of the youth fills me with horror. BRAIN WASHING is trying to rise.

    If you want that kind of control it means you lack it yourself and many do. To use the pulpit to exercise that kind of control is not in the remit of the bible, Jesus or the Father.

    You don’t see Jesus in a church. You see him walking with the Fathers hope and love among the people. Why. He came to show the church the error of their ways. Revelations.

    Hang on in there while he cleans the vessel/s.

  10. As some of you may know, I met a lot of those guys in my travels to different churches and conferences over a period of several years. Every one of them was on a personal power trip. They actually think most of their followers are already their personal kingdom, and they are the monarchs. And their expectation is to be treated that way. Most do not believe the serving aspect of the gospel is for them. That’s for the folks underneath them, because these guys are so convinced they are special oracles of God that they believe they are the only folks fit enough to rule the earth until Jesus comes.

    One of their big ambitions is to get rid of all the opposition in the rest of the church. They dream about taking over all the ‘dead’ churches, aka known to them as the Bible believing ones that keep them reined in to an extent now.

    So, I don’t worry as much about them getting into the kind of dominionist power they aspire to, as I do them attracting so many disgruntled youth by promoting their current extreme charismatic craziness and profit making schemes, and of course, even worse, creating a generation of folks who believe signs and wonders are more important than the Bible.

    I don’t think that’s the only element of course, but from being a bit of an insider I know personal power is their biggest thing. And, certainly, they are driven by big bucks as well. They all live extremely well, and go first class everywhere. And, to an insecure youth looking for that kind of instant success in their lives, it is appealing to think of themselves as part of a such an elite and chosen generation, where all they have to do is become a self-appointed prophet or apostle, and travel the country building a following of their own.

    So it’s quid pro quo. Everybody gets their egos massaged, and it’s a lucrative business to boot. However, seeing how profit oriented these guys are, I don’t think too many of their ministries, which are mainly based upon income from conferences and the like, will likely survive the shrinking economy very well, quite frankly.

    Like the prosperity gospel folks, with whom they are closely aligned, in the end I believe God will prove their trumped up theories wrong, because their delusion primarily rests on the premise that the one with the most money and biggest prophetic following will wind up in control of the church, and ultimately the world. That only works in good economies, however, when everyone is doing well, because when things start to go south financially pretty soon the folks underneath finally get they are just part of a big Ponzi scheme, with God’s name on it. Then the jig is up.

    I may not be right, but that’s what I’ve actually seen firsthand over the years.

  11. I agree with you mbaker. I was a part of the over the top pentecostal/prosperity/apostles-and-prophets-are-better-than-the-“common man” mentality for almost 20 years. I got out right before the economy went bad.

    However, one of their brainwashing techniques is to tell the poor and struggling to just keep giving rather than pay their bills, and THEN their bills will miraculously get paid by the money that comes in as a reward for their giving/tithing. It’s a ruthless scam on the poor. If they are going to take up offerings, they should be giving it back the poor in their congregations/followers, rather than living “high on the hog”. But that’s wishful thinking. They are wolves who devour the sheep. They rob the widow and orphan and strut like peacocks saying, “Look at me. How blessed I am! What a good witness I am of the goodness of God.”

    I truly hope that the jig is up, and people wake up and stop funding these thieves and pay their own bills and help others less fortunate in a more direct way. But it seems they all keep endlessly cranking out their stupid, useless conferences….. I would love it if they spent a fortune setting them up, only to hear nothing but the sound of crickets chirping when then stepped up on the stage.

  12. ..what’s this “so called Joel s army ” , anyway..?
    Somebody used the phrase, 30 years ago, and now it ‘s vieuwed as top-evangelical
    – including all the fuzzy explanations about it

    Joel s Army are demons:
    the same as Isaiah 13

    ..what is all this ‘evangelical parrotting ‘ about..?

  13. MAN RAISES UP ARMYS.

    JESUS WAS THE ARMY.

  14. I posted this comment on ETPW blog, about David Herzog, a “Simon the Sorcerer” to keep a close watch on. I don’t think the “miracles” he is claiming are really happening. Some of the “manifestations” do happen(I experienced some when I was in all of this false garbage). But they would be considered false signs and wonders, in my opinion. Anyone care to analyze this “announcement/ report”?
    I am interested in others’ insights.

    ~I am so sick of all this “exploding into the glory realm” and “worship breakthrough”. And all of “supernatural” manifestations that they claim are God, are simply a hoax or seducing spirits giving them what they want. False signs and wonders. WAKE UP CHURCH!
    P.S. I hate that they are “invading”(good word, since they have no rightful mandate to do so) my home state of Texas.

    PRAYER ALERT: TEXAS GLORY INVASION STARTS TONIGHT! ISRAEL TRIP SEPT!, PRAISE REPORT‏
    David Herzog
    Apr 17, 2009

    DAVID & STEPHANIE HERZOG
    The Glory Zone News
    David Herzog Ministries

    PRAYER ALERT! TEXAS MEETINGS START TONIGHT (Friday night)

    TEXAS GLORY INVASION: Fri-Sun (In Beeville TX, 1 hour from Corpus Christi airport and 1 1/2 hr drive from San Antonio airport)
    David and Joy, our oldest daughter fly out Friday morning, basically in a few hours to see Texas touched again with blazing glory…People are already coming from all over the USA and even Switzerland to these meetings as reported by the church secretary.
    To out more like location and times you can go to http://www.thegloryzone.org and click itinerary…

    Please Pray for
    *Heavy Glory, Creative Miracles, Healings, Signs to hit the entire South.
    *Great Favor and blessing coming in and going out
    *Many Souls saved
    *Supernatural financial miracles over many in this season
    *Praise and Worship to breakthrough and explode to new glory realms
    *Pray for Supernatural health and supernatural strength during this season
    *Traveling mercies as there are reports of strong wind-pray against travel delays

    Thanks for letting us know you are praying for this weekend in TEXAS! Pray for BIG things to come out of Texas.

    PRAISE REPORTS- The Sedona Passover ‘Take Your Mountain’ conference was awesome as the Glory of God once again invaded all our lives. David also spoke about taking your mountain with supernatural authority as many miracles confirmed and occurred during both David and Stephanie’s sessions such as an eye that was blinded buy a cataract healed!, tumors dissolved, teeth turned to gold, a lady that could not walk without her cane was healed, another woman could run and was healed, another man in a wheelchair could not move his legs suddenly began moving his legs and even stood up at one point which he could not do before even with help and he also was one of the ones that received salvation last weekend and many other such miracles occurred. One of the signs that occurred was that suddenly during David’s service a very strong supernatural scent of many different flowers hit the room, in one part of the room people would smell roses, while yet another smelled lilies, then acacia in another etc..We were in a literal garden of Eden in the spirit yet the scent was undeniable. Stephanie speaking on “We are Supernatural Beings” and how to release the glow of God’s supernatural to the world also released the joy of the Lord as she was suddenly in the middle of her message for no apparent reason totally filled (other would say drunk) in the spirit as it became very contagious and spread throughout the conference as many received healing and deliverance as a result. Lance Wallnau brought a superb message on how to begin taking the 7 mountains and how to assess what mountain=2 0you are called to take and how to start taking it!
    *Going for kingdoms not just souls was a key because if you capture the kingdoms for instance of “Media” or “Govt” you will also be able to influence and lead many souls to salvation as opposed to only going for souls but not the power that control and influence millions of souls. Terry and Darlene were surprise guests as they brought in a heavy glory with native American Worship and a message that opened up things in the spirit as we were in a literal glory cloud. Steve Swanson to us to the heights of God’s presence and glory once again leading the worship.
    *If you would like to order the entire Conference set “Take Your Mountain” Passover conference you can do so online at http://www.thegloryzone.org

    ISRAEL GLORY INVASION–TOUR/OUTREACH: September 27-October 6th, 2009

    THIS WILL BE OUR 11TH TOUR/OUTREACH SINCE 2003!
    Sign up today to hold your spot.

    This powerful trip will occur during during the Feast of Tabernacles which we have found to be the most open heaven filled, glory impacting and joyous time!

    *Participate in a live recording worship service in the open desert with Paul Wilbur along with 10,000 other people, experience being in both a geographical portal (Israel) and a seasonal portal (Feast of Tabernacles) all at the same time!
    *While standing in these open heavens you will feed the poor (Ethiopian Jews & others, minister to the youth, minister to both Jews and Arabs and even soldiers!) This tour/outreach will be like no other….
    *Be blessed by teachers in the land as well as David & Stephanie as you tap into the secret behind the “Israel Blessing” all the while being in the glory realm while in Israel….That’s blessing upon blessing.
    *Tap into a well that will majorly (new word I created) increase the impartation upon your life not to mention the favor and provision of God as the Bible promises for blessing Israel especially in her time of need.
    The blessing that comes each year from blessing Israel is greater than anything else we do as a ministry, that is why we can’t ‘not go’ as we don’t want to miss out on the spiritual and physical blessing and impartation!
    *Visit Jerusalem, Galilee, Dead Sea, Mt. Carmel, Bethel, and many other “still active” glory wells!

    SIGN UP TODAY BEFORE SEATS RUN OUT! AT http://WWW.THEGLORYZONE.ORG

    PROPERTY PURCHASE UPDATE: Please continue to pray as your prayers are pushing back the demonic and allowing the angelic forces to work on our beh alf, we are actually enjoying fighting this good fight as great fruit will soon be the result. This is more of a spiritual war that we are sensing than anything else especially in a town like Sedona dominated by New Age. This building represents God’s kingdom taking ground especially over the gate/entrance of the city for everyone to see where this building is loca ted.
    Thanks for letting us know you are continuing to pray with us for a final breakthrough. The victory will be great! Just keep the pressure on in the spirit with your prayers! If God leads you to give you can do so on the website

    MORE UPCOMING MEETINGS (more info at http://www.thegloryzone.org)

    April 17-19: Beeville, Texas
    April 24-26: Little Roc k, Arkansas

    May the Glory, Power and Love of God Invade you today!

    David & Stephanie Herzog

    For more info go to http://www.thegloryzone.org

  15. DoubleGrace,

    This is in response to your comment above on the David Herzog “invasion” of Texas. I agree with your perception of these things. As I was coming out of this movement and since then, the study I have done on this subject has led me to the same conclusions.

  16. What spirit rules Texas.

  17. I too came out of the ‘prophetic’ movement. I had been involved since 1988 (for the alumni, that is the year that the ‘prophets’ were supposedly birthed – LOL).
    Anyway, I do think something was ‘birthed’ but not of God. I do NOT see a demon behind every bush..or doorknob…however I do as the Church has since the denouncing of the Gnostics…….see heresy at work. Remember just because the leaders are money hungry, immoral, amoral, egotistical, messiah complex, delusions of grandeur which are all human conditions……..do NOT discount the involvement of evil spirits. After all ‘witchcraft’ is listed as a “work of the flesh” meaning,,,,,,it has to have fleshly(human) involvent and cooperation (as in these ‘ministers’) but it certainly doesnt mean that evil spirits and what the BIBLE calls seducing spirits..— yep it says seducing spirits, not just seducing people. I have been in these services when i was beginning to see the heresy involved but still felt some kind of ‘annointing’ but the more i began to question the heretical doctrines, the more that ‘annointing’ began to feel sickening…to the point that while one well known minister in Atlanta was speaking (7 mountains), I became physically ill with every word proceeding out of his mouth…..I felt a strong leading that debris was being deposited on the body of Christ.
    It was only one week before he was leading us into the so called “third heaven” as if on a road trip to the zoo. The man is totally taken over by deception and without a divine intervention, he is hopeless.
    BE WARY…….the safest way to test the spirits (yep that word again) is to just study the Bible and see if these guys (and gals) match up…………THEY DONT
    Dawn

    • Good comments, Dawn. Yes, I remember too, the “birthing” (oh, how I have grown to despise that word!) of the “prophetic” movement. I didn’t get deeply involved until the early 90’s however.

      The small charismatic church I attended was coming out of the Shepherding Movement in the 80’s,but an elder in the church was starting to teach on it again(with a different name). I don’t think they ever totally “shook off” the Shepherding mentality. They were a little into the prophetic (blurting out tongues and prophecy during a lull in the worship….and always at about the same point in the worship and the same person. Nothing profound, which is fine. I think the guy ‘prophesying’ was trying to be encouraging, so was more in line with scripture than those who claim to be prophets today.)

      After we left that church we went “whole hog” for the prophetic, the ‘anointing’, signs and wonders, laughter, drunkeness. How foolish we were. But our flesh wanted feelings and signs as ‘proof’ of God and His closeness and approval. I think what you said about witchcraft starting in the flesh is so true, as the scripture always is. I never noticed that before.

      Anyway, interesting comments. Thanks.

  18. A woman has come into our congregation and immediately started “courting” the leadership. She took me one evening to a service and I could not believe my eyes and ears. It was a Todd Bentley church. The spirit within me said to stay away from this woman. But soon she was in the same prayer ministry as I was. She was handing out all kinds of false doctrine through tapes and emails and telling people she had “special” powers.
    I went to the leaders of the congregation and showed them the material. They said that this was not what they believed but for me to just pray about it.
    Shortly after that she claimed (in my spirit I feel that this was a manipulation) that she had lung cancer and only had 2 weeks to live. She left for awhile but now that she is back, “healed” of course, everyone thinks that she is a spiritual giant and I have become the “bad” guy.
    So far the congregation has not changed or gotten into the things that she is in but I have been told by my prayer minister that I have to “trust” her and become one with her. I told him that I would not do that until God told me to and if he thinks that God wants me to, he can show me the scriptures telling me that I should trust anyone but the Lord God Jehovah. There are none so I know he won’t be getting back with me.

    My question is. . . Do they plant people within congregations? This woman is so “holy and only asks questions about other people, never talks about herself (in fact if you ask her anything personal she won’t answer it), seems so righteous, never seems to get angry. But I have caught her in lies and seen her be really weird at times. She feeds us but won’t eat the food herself. (I don’t eat it if she won’t eat it) Wants to take your picture but when I refused, she took it anyway. Claims that the devil has tried to kill her and says that she is in a “deliverance” ministry and wants to come lay hands on your friends and relatives.
    Any scriptures that would help me when I pray? I am sure that unless the Lord moves her from our congregation, she is there to change things.

  19. That signs and wonders seem to attend this teaching is all the more reason to “blow a trumpet in Zion” (Joel 2:1) Thank you for this resource. I have done a contextual study on this prophecy which I invite you to read and would be interested in your comments upon. See lamp-stand.com & click on item 3.G on the right column. I look forward to hearing from you!

  20. I’m sorry, that’s 2.G (not 3.G)

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