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HT to Mariam at endtimespropheticwords
The Pope and the Catholic Church apparently has joined ranks with John Hagee and CUFI (so to speak) in not evangelizing Jews who live in Israel.
There are many other things, besides the decision and promise made by the Pope, I’d like to comment on in this article appearing in today’s Jerusalem Post–but wisdom dictates I stay silent at this time.
After meeting the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammad Ahmad Hussein, and praying at the Western Wall on Tuesday, Pope Benedict XVI arrived for a historic meeting with the chief rabbis at Heichal Shlomo, next to the capital’s Great Synagogue, and agreed that the Catholic Church will cease all missionary activity among Jews.
In his welcoming address, Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Yona Metzger thanked the pope for his announcement, calling it an “historic agreement and, “for us, an immensely important message.”
Metzger also congratulated the pope on his arrival to “our holy land – the land to which we prayed to return during 2,000 years of exile… And, with God’s help, our meeting today is taking place in the Land of Israel, in our city of Jerusalem – the eternal capital of the Jewish people.”
In a hint of criticism over Benedict’s speech at Yad Vashem on Monday, which was received with disappointment for its failure to apologize on behalf of the Catholic Church while paying tribute to the memory of the six million Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, Metzger hailed Benedict’s predecessor;
“Pope John Paul II, who visited us nine years ago, placed a note between the stones of the Western Wall, and in it a request for forgiveness from the Jewish people for the suffering caused to them throughout history, and of the Christian commitment toward true fraternity between our peoples.”
“I commend with appreciation your clear proclamation that anti-Semitism is not only a sin against the Jews, but also a sin against God,” the chief rabbi continued.
Filed under: Bad Theology, Eschatology, Man Says God Says, The Church | Tagged: Christian Zionism, CUFI, Dispensationalism, Israel, Missions, Politics, RCC, Spirit of antichrist, The Gospel, The Pope
that is good news! the catholic religion is based on salvation by works and their religion is full of mysticism and they also have goddess (Mary) worship. It is better not to know the gospel than to know a perverted gospel.
I was really surprised to read this Lee…were you?
My thought was the Pope’s declaration might make it even more difficult for groups like Jews for Jesus, and the Jewish messianic believers living in Israel now. It appears by him giving this promise, he is agreeing with Orthodox Jews concerning the gospel and Jesus Christ…
How do you interpret the meaning of Romans 11, Paul’s Olive Tree Theology? Who or what is the root of that tree? Who or what are the branches?
Thank you.
Hi Aryu-gene…
In your reference to Rom. 11 are you pointing out there is a remnant of believers/followers of Christ today, within Israel?
If so, i agree…yes there are Jewish followers of Christ living in Israel…(i’ve posted stories about it in the past–if interested in reading them, type in ‘Messianic’ into search)
I guess spreading the gospel is no longer a priority.
You’re right. I don’t think its been a priority for some time Cop–and i say that with sadness.
I am trying to discern your doctrinal persuasions. Are you into Replacement Theology, the doctrine that the Jews are now irrelevant and ALL the promises and covenants God made to Israel now belong to the Gentile Christian church? Are you supercessionist?
No.
If you’d like to read about my theological beliefs check out the ‘ology’s’ page and also the ‘me’ page located at the top.
If you do, you’ll also quickly realize im NOT a dispensationalist either. Nor a Christian Zionist.
pjmiller:
Actually, the Roman Catholic Church came out with the policy of no longer targeting Jews for conversion some time ago. Further, as the Roman Catholic Church officially adopted pluralism – the many paths to heaven false doctrine – at the Vatican II, it has largely ceased to be an evangelistic faith, because since according to pluralism all good and moral people go to heaven anyway, why bother converting anyone from one faith to another? So since Vatican II, individual Roman Catholics have been free to conduct their own personal evangelistic and missionary activities, but the Roman institutional church itself has had other priorities.
What is going on here is simply the grandstanding of the Christ hating Israeli rabbis. Whenever a Christian dignitary comes to Israel, this same group of rabbis demands that he pledges to combat Christian attempts to convert Jews and that he apologizes on behalf of all Christians for all crimes committed against all Jews for all time. No matter how many times you promise not to evangelize Jews or apologize for anti-Semitism, it is never enough to please them because their goal isn’t genuine contrition or the actual cessation of evangelizing Jews. Instead, it is A) making it known that they hate Christ, Christians, and Christianity and B) publicizing among their own ranks that it is the duty of all faithful religious Jews to hate Christ, Christians, and Christianity also.
So the next time the pope visits Israel, they will make the same demands for the Roman Catholic Church to stop evangelizing Jews, and the same demands to apologize for anti-Semitism, and if Benedict visits Israel again (and I am certain that he will), Benedict will comply just as John Paul whatever his number did when he visited Israel a few years ago, and the next pope will make the same apology for anti-Semitism and promise to stop evangelizing Jews as John Paul and Benedict did, and so on and so on.
Again, the real purpose is not to stop the evangelization of Jews, because there is no great movement of Jews to Roman Catholicism anyway, and hasn’t been for quite awhile, and even when it was the movement was mostly due to social and economic pressure (institutional Catholic anti-Semitism of the sort that no longer exists except in some pockets of eastern Europe) as opposed to actually religious reasons. There is only a small movement of Jews to Messianic Judaism and other forms of evangelical Christianity, and if there was a single voice who spoke for evangelical Christianity the way that the pope does for Catholics, that voice would get the same treatment. The biggest threat to Judaism is secularism, Jews simply abandoning the faith for atheism and nonobservance and not raising their children in the Jewish faith, not Christian evangelists. Yet these same religious rabbis don’t do much of anything to fight that threat … they get much angrier over the few dozen or so Jews they lose a year to Christianity than over the hundreds of thousands of Jews they lose yearly to secularism and lack of observance.
So, all they are trying to do is A) publicly emasculate and humiliate a Christian leader, B) make it plainly known that Jews are supposed to hate Christians and C) that Israel is a Jewish country by and for Jews, and everybody who comes there is to know their place. What they really want – and are going to keep trying until they get it – is to get a pope, a leader of the Anglican church, or another leader of a large Christian body to state – at their demand – that the reason why Christian should cease to evangelize Jews is because the central claims of Christianity are false, Judaism is the true religion, and that Christians should all become “Noahide Gentiles.” And even if that happens, these rabbis and their descendants would still insist on Christians submitting themselves to hundreds of years of self – flagellations for ever following Jesus Christ to begin with. Look, I do not mean to defend or minimize the sinfulness of the hateful, violence – provoking rants of folks like Martin Luther and John Calvin against the Jews, but you have to understand that Luther and Calvin behaved that way after being subjected to many provocations by the ancestors of the very same Pharisee folk that run Israel now.
Again, the most amazing thing about these dispensational pastors and theologians who visit Israel and deal with these rabbis all the time is the fact that they KNOW how much these people viscerally rabidly hate Christ, Christianity and Christians in a manner that is similar to or exceeds how your typical right wing red state culture warrior type opposes Muslims, and these folks KNOW that this hatred is ingrained in their religion and culture just like it is with Islam. I know this from what these folks are willing to say IN PUBLIC on the Jerusalem Post, Ha’aretz, and some of the major Jewish blogs. You can only imagine what is said in the Jewish papers that are only available in Hebrew, and in private, especially in their synagogues.
Yet these dispensationalists lie through their teeth about the “Judeo-Christianity” deception because they figure that deceiving good Christian folk into supporting not only the political state of Israel but also its religion Judaism will cause the ingathering of the Jews into the Holy Land, the rebuilding of the temple, and the rapture to occur quicker, so the ends justifies the means.
Now you know how I feel about the pope and Roman Catholicism, but I am not tempted in the least to crack a smile at the public abuse that the pope gets from the rabbis whenever he visits Israel, because I know that those same rabbis would do the very same to you or I if they had a reason and got the chance. That’s why I see the state of Israel as no different from a Muslim, Hindu, or any other nation devoted to a false religion, because quite honestly that is what it is. And before anyone replies claiming that it is my duty to turn the other cheek and love the Jewish people … this I do. But I also do the same for the Palestinians, other Muslims, and everybody else that practices a false religion. Many of the folks who are capable of talking hours at a time about their great love and devotion for the Jewish people and how often they pray for the peace of Jerusalem wouldn’t bat an eye if we (and Israel) were to just start slaughtering Muslims and Arabs wholesale.
Well, i learned something new cause i sure didn’t know that Job. Thanks…
So each new Pope must make a new declaration?
You picked up on much of what i wanted to say after reading the article, but didn’t.
I understand and agree with your entire comment Job.
The church which has participated in this deception, and the way its caused them to see and treat people, (showing partiality to one, while hatred to another) will stand before Jesus one day with no excuse to offer. I believe they won’t even try to offer one actually, for then their eyes will be opened to the truth they are so blinded to now. They will grieve then…
Their beliefs are based upon doctrines of demons.
I agree with Job and also will like to add that Catholics are seen as the mother church, so this will affect real Christian who wants to evangelize. We are the losers in this, because it will justify Jews resisting to Jesus.
Even the Jews will be tormented by the two witness preaching.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(Rev 11:8-10)
pjmiller:
I do not know if it was the pope who issued the official statement last time, although I know that John Paul whatever his number was approved it, but here goes a link that talks more about it. Excerpt:
Now of course these rabbis know about this agreement, signed in 2002. They also know that the Roman Catholic leadership has kept its part of the deal. Their only purpose for doing this was to humiliate Benedict and his followers and to further establish ground rules (which by the way dispensational evangelicals have been more than willing to play by): it is ok for us to attack, marginalize, denigrate, and pressure you to abandon your faith, but you have to respect us and ours.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/messianic/messianic12.html
Interesting article… thanks for the link.
After reading through it, i agree with the Southern Baptist.
pjmiller:
We really need to call these Jewish leaders what they are, which is the modern day descendants of the Pharisees. Actually, that is unfair … to the Pharisees. Because the Pharisees at least thought that they were practicing the Sinai religion given to Moses, or as close to what it was as they could. Modern rabbinic Judaism operates in full knowledge of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the failure of the last false messiah, Simeon bar Kochba, in 132 AD. No matter how they now try to deny it, they all understood the prophets and the rest of the Old Testament to point to the Messiah coming in the time that Jesus Christ did. That was why there were all those false messiahs at that time, from the time shortly before Jesus Christ was born right up until bar Kochba. But after bar Kochba ended the last little bit of hope they had, the rabbis reinterpreted their scriptures to make the claim that all those passages never were messianic to begin with, and that us rascally anti – Semitic Christians distorted them, falsely appropriated their prophecies and typology, and made it all up. They also came up with this elaborate system of rituals to replace the temple. So where before a Jew had to burn a sacrifice for sin, now to cover sin they do fasting. There was an excellent – if chilling – column by a Conservative (meaning neither Orthodox or Reform) rabbi in the Jerusalem Post about three years ago where he discussed how Judaism evolved its beliefs and practices to accommodate no longer having a temple or a sacrifices, to the point where now a good percentage of Jews no longer want the temple and doesn’t want have anything to do with animal sacrifices, which they see as cruel and backwards. (How ironic that dispensational Christians, meanwhile, zealously want the temple and the sacrifices, and some schools of dispensational thought actually claims that the animal sacrifices will continue during the millennial reign while Jesus Christ – whose death was supposed to cover all sins and all worship is supposed to be given directly to Him in spirit and in truth, remember His teaching the Samaritan woman, or the book of Hebrews – sits on the throne in Jerusalem!)
My goodness, my heart breaks for the sincere dispensational Christians who daily go on the message boards of the Jerusalem Post, Ha’aretz, etc. to tell the Jews that they love them and are praying for them and support Israel and how they are so different from the other bad anti -Semite Christians, and in response they have their faith and intelligence abused and mocked in a manner that they would never put up with for a second if it were coming from an atheist, a Muslim, or an Ivy League/Hollywood liberal, and they just keep coming back for more!
If we were to just stand up to the dispensational industry on one side and the Holocaust smear against all Christians industry on the other and call out these rabbis for what they are … descendants of the Pharisees, maybe that would change a few minds and hearts out there. We would challenge these Christians … exactly why aren’t they Pharisees? What difference is there between them and the Pharisees? They reject Jesus Christ today the same as did the Pharisees in their time. If you are going to be so positive in your view of the modern Pharisees, then you need to apologize for the Pharisees in the time of Jesus Christ, and not only that, but you need to take out what the New Testament says about it to reflect it!
But actually, that is happening already. I have been watching some of the more recent movies about Jesus Christ, especially the ones made for kids, and they are more and more trying to shift the blame to the Romans. Especially the ones that depict Jesus Christ being arrested in Gethsemane … the Bible specifically states that the chief priest’s paramilitary outfit, the temple guards, arrested Jesus Christ, and the Romans didn’t get involved until later. However, modern movies – again especially children’s cartoons – have the Romans arresting Jesus Christ in Gethsemane, or at most they have a mixture of Romans and temple guards with the Romans leading the way. As if Roman soldiers would have conspired with Judas Iscariot, and further the Bible makes it clear that it was the high priest’s slave whose ear Peter cut off, not a Roman soldier’s. I have this cartoon from Pat Robertson and CBN in particular – I didn’t know it was from CBN when I bought it – that lays practically the whole thing on the Romans. We all know why … were Robertson to make a Biblically faithful adaptation of Christ’s crucifixion, his relationships with the Jewish rabbis would end immediately. Others aren’t so blatant, but it does show the effects that these “interfaith exchanges” between Jews and evangelicals have had, where the rabbis and scholars have done an excellent job of convincing our evangelical intellectuals how certain things are wrong or are taken out of context. I remember their first big victory was to get several large Christian publishers to replace “the Jews” with “the people” in the scene where Barnabas was freed instead of Jesus Christ in children’s Bibles, and that was over ten years ago.
Were we to just demand that these rabbis be referred to as Pharisees and antichrists (seriously, that is what the Johannine epistles call them – antichrists!) evangelicals would see just how ridiculous dealing with them, let alone abandoning and compromising our own faith, is. The same evangelicals who wouldn’t give up a spoiled can of soup to a Muslim have given away the whole store to the Jewish religious leaders, and it is all because they want to be raptured so badly.
When first digging into the background of dispensationalism, the fact that you mentioned, concerning most Jews living in Israel (and elsewhere) not being the least interested in re-building a temple, took me by surprise.
Like most dispensationalist i had always been under the impression it was a national (Israeli) desire to see the temple rebuilt.
I then came to see it was mainly Western Christian Zionists, who are in fact dispensationalists, who actually made up the largest group who were trying to see it come about; some of them working with [and financially supporting] the Temple Institute.
Then they are re-writing the bible Job…they are also ignoring the truth of the prophecy Jesus himself spoke, concerning why Jerusalem was to be destroyed in 70AD.
Back a year or 2 ago i know i was taken aback, by the comments some readers left, after putting up a few posts which included excerpts from the account by Josephus on the war and destruction of Jerusalem. They were amazed at the horrors recorded in the eye witness account. Some, though saved for years, had never once heard a sermon or teaching in their churches on the subject….even though it is a fulfillment of prophecy and part of biblical history!
Isn’t that something?
But why: Why do they seek to appease Jewish rabbis…to the point of ignoring biblical truth?
Is it only due to their eschatological beliefs, or is it political?
The whole thing is beyond my comprehension– i just plain don’t get it. My only answer is spiritual blindness on their part. Its the only thing i can come up with which makes any sense.
Yes, i read at many of these boards and blogs also–plus i read the comments left under articles at both news org. I see it too.
Interesting article tonight at Haaretz based on a book review:
Do Jews have a Jesus problem? - 13/05/2009
quote…
The image of Jesus that one gets from the Talmud is that of an illicit, sex-crazed black magician who uses trickery to lead Israel astray. In BT Sanhedrin 103a, Jesus is depicted as a poor disciple who “spoiled his food,” which Schafer speculates may be a euphemism for sexual misconduct: “to eat the dish” being a recognized Talmudic euphemism known for the sex act itself. A later emendation adds that he “practiced magic and led Israel astray.” And the virgin birth is ridiculed as a cover-up of Jesus? true parentage: His mother was an “illicit woman” (another Talmudic locution), perhaps even a prostitute.
Strong stuff – no wonder they don’t teach it in Sunday school. But fascinating, as well, as long as, of course, we don’t take it too seriously (which, doubtless, some Jews do).
The texts Schafer adduces – all of them relatively late, dating to the third- or fourth-century C.E., suggesting a conscious effort to fight the upstart sect – show that the Talmudic rabbis did not reject Jesus for the noble reasons that Klinghoffer and his ilk suggest. At least according to these texts, they rejected him because they thought he was evil, or saw him as a threat.
The most notorious of all the “Jesus texts,” however, is BT Sanhedrin 43a, which describes the halachic procedure of Jesus’ trial and execution. This is notorious, of course, because for nearly 2,000 years, Christian authorities have been blaming the Jews for killing Jesus, even though the New Testament itself makes clear that it’s the Romans who actually did the deed.
Shockingly, however, the Talmud does not shirk responsibility for Jesus’ death. On the contrary, it says that he deserved it and that the Jews did it themselves. Jesus was, the text relates, a sorcerer, an idolater and a heretic who led Israel to idolatry. His conviction was entirely just, and his execution – stoning and then hanging – was carried out in strict accordance with rabbinic law.
Why would the Talmud make such a claim? Schafer speculates it is to undermine the Gospels’ account and empower the rabbis.
more here- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1085218.html
The lion’s share of any real EFFECTIVE evangelism in Israel, is accomplished by Christian Jews, who live their daily lives in Israel, and are a witness as they walk in the light. Most of the organizations that “evangelize”, be they Messianic, Protestant, or Catholic, are stunningly INEFFECTIVE, and their existence in itself more symbolic than useful to God’s kingdom. The beneficiaries are themselves, who all collect salaries and are supported by their efforts, by the faith of Westerners, mostly non-Jewish Christians who love Israel, who lavishly give to the cause. Mostly, if not all, are hirelings at best, and the “user” word comes to mind….consider the spirit behind Religious prosylitism…[..Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses,and other cults..].. This the type of Religious strife and territorial control that Paul the apostle fought against daily, and exists in the holy land today….and much of it falls squarely on the “Messianic” organizations. The elitist spirit among these groups is sickening, and most of them practice the Law in some form or another. It is the enemy to grace. The Catholics are small potatoes, and mostly odious to all.
The Roman Catholics are the bottom feeders, and their surrender of evangelistic campaigns would be akin to the Pope swearing off Baptist pot luck dinners. It was , and is , nil and void….non-existant…nada. I would be surprised to see one Orthodox Jew that was ever converted, and I would bet that in the last decade, there would not be 10 Jews of ANY KIND..[secular, nominal, or racial] converted to the MASS. Those that did so, were most likely paid, or saw some sort of financial or temporal benefit in it.
If you want to see Israel ablaze with the Messiah’s glory, please understand that in the beginning, souls were added daily, such as were appointed to eternal life, TO THE CHURCH. It is the same today. The Lord convicts, as the lost Jews see the light and love of Israeli believers…and some, if not many, are converted in small meetings where the Gospel is tenderly explained and proven…by Jews from Jewish scripture. The Jew generally does not trust Goyim; the gentile, of any race or persuasion.
Pray for the purity of the small flock in Israel..and their blessing…and remember the Israeli gentile too.
amen…
Things are not quite as bad in Israel as you report. There are now over 100 Messianic Synagogues in Israel and a Messianic Jewish Girl just won the National Spelling Bee there. She did not conceal her faith in Yeshua. Messianic Judaism has gotten some decent and respectful press lately. Larry Derfner, a Jerusalem Post reporter just wrote a 4 page feature on Israeli Messianic Judaism for the paper’s weekend edition. He was suspicious of M.J’s because he had covered a story on the anti-missionary group, “Yad L’Achim”. But after investigating the MJ’s, his article was summarized this way: “…how can you not like them”?
Jews are coming to Jesus in greater numbers than ever. (go to http://www.messianictimes.com
Thanks for the link!
Was there a recent national spelling bee Aryu-gene? I know the one in 08 wasn’t won by a Messianic believer, though one [a girl] did participate and became a finalist.
See:
What if a ‘messianic Jew’ wins Israel’s annual Bible quiz? -
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/05/04/what-if-a-messianic-jew-wins-israels-annual-bible-quiz/
and-
More News on the ‘Bible Quiz Boycott’ in Israel-
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/more-news-on-the-bible-quiz-boycott-in-israel/
and-
Jews for Jesus launch New Campaign in Shadow of Bible Quiz Controversy-
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/jews-for-jesus-launch-new-campaign-in-shadow-of-bible-quiz-controversy/
Things are pretty bad… there is a lot of persecution toward Jewish believers in Christ–some of it pretty radical.
Please see:
New Testaments trash? More on NT burnings in Israel-
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/new-testaments-trash-more-on-nt-burnings-in-israel/
and-
Harrassed by Christian missionaries, Israelis take out the trash-
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/12859.htm
This is a video i posted last year, made by a young Jewish believer living in Israel. You might find it interesting.
Watch here: Who_would_have_believed
Mr. Watkins,
What Messianic groups in Israel have an elitist spirit? Do you have empirical evidence? What is your association with them that would make you call them “sickening”. The MJAA (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America) gives hundreds of thousands of dollars in material aid to relieve some of the poverty there. They also witness to them about Yeshua, especially to those making aliyah–Russians, Ethiopians, etc. Have you ever even been to Israel?
You prove my point and fortify my indictments.. Yes, charitable contributions to the poor are a very civil and right thing to do, but in themselves, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST! ZERO! Hezbollah, and other Islamic terrorists also relieve the poor, and the Catholics will make any Messianic organization look like a lemonade stand in terms of their charitable outreaches to the destitute and poor… which are massive.
Likewise, the journey of aliyah is absolutely separated from the Kingdom of Heaven and the Apostolic gospel. Jesus said, “You must be born again!”, [ not transported geographically, ] to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I leave Russia a struggling atheist, I enter Israel a religious struggling atheist…with a yammukah. “Could not I have been born anew in Moscow?” This is the precise reason that I would discourage anyone from giving to your group,,,,[ MJJA ] for as I see it, you are wasting gospel resources on religious crusades that are symbolic in nature, and in truth divorced from the simple gospel of being born again by the Spirit through faith in Jesus alone, and His shed blood. There is no Jew or Gentile; we are one in Christ…which then leads me to the “empirical evidence” you desired. It came strait from your lips. The gentile in Israel is as important as the Jew. The same in God’s eyes…if you believe, and practice the New Testament. anything less than this, is ELITISM, and forbidden by the Spirit and the Word.
Have I ever been to Israel?…yes…more than once.., and have known Messianic leaders of like organizations. No reflection on yourself…really, but as is obvious, I am not impressed. This is where my term “sickening” comes into play. It grieves me to see so many deprived of a true gospel message by those masquerading as ministers of Jesus, while in reality bound by legalism and religious works…all in the name of “Messianic”. It usually is not Messianic at all, but legalistic and Elite, and as the tones of your letter implied, very self righteous. When the Lord Jesus does move in Israel, I believe that it in spite of these organizations…and I want to assure you, there are good men and women salted throughout.
Remember, the Gospel is about people being born again…Jew or gentile…..One in Christ….and seeing that holy church bear Godly fruit unto maturity……not making a living off her back.[ the church..], or having crusades or venues to make everyone feel good about themselves because of the fulfillment of religious duties.
One other note to readers. Keep your money. Ask God where to give after His heart…not the religious beggars who make their income as professional holy men calling for another crusade.
Sorry, PJ,
It WAS a bible quiz, and not a spelling bee. My bad.
Mr. Watkins,
On prophecy, church history and scripture your ignorance is invincible. May Elohim open your eyes and your heart to the truth… You are in for such a rude awakening when the Jewish Messiah returns. Why would you condemn a Jewish movement that wants to bring their Jewish brothers into a relationship with their true Messiah? These people are just as “born again” as you are. They are using whatever tools and venues that God sees fit for them to reach their spiritually lost People.
Shalom
Aryu-gene
I may be in error, but i don’t believe Tom is condemning people [or groups/movements] who are taking the gospel of Jesus Christ to lost Jews.
Correct me if im wrong Tom, but i got the impression some of your disgust was with Christian and/or Messianic groups who attempt to incorporate the law/works with grace–the old covenant with the new… like in the hebrew roots movement, the “returning to our jewish roots” movement[s] (of which there are many!), etc..
course i could be way off base
I’d like to hear more about the groups you encountered when visiting.
Aryu-gene, i removed the antisemitism comment–i know Tom well enough to know that’s not true at all.
Folks, lets discuss but not make personal accusations against those we disagree with: sometimes its just a matter of mis-communication anyway.
Watch me, as I kick the dust off my sandals from this blog site. You compromised the punch and integrity of my comment with your editing. I don’t appreciate that. Yes, Tom is anti-semitic and into replacement theology. It is intuitively obvious from his acerbic comments. If he was personally and/or verbally abused by a Messianic Jew, then he should deal with that person. But don’t condemn the whole barrel for a few bad apples. Jesus will not return until all Israel says: “Baruch ha ba b’shem Adonai” (Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord).
Christians need to support the work of Messianic Judaism as much as possible. We are the ones who will usher in the return of the Messiah.
Go to www. promisekeepers.org and learn how we will be honored by thousands of Christians in Denver on July 31.
I leave my Shalom with you, in the name of Yeshua ha Maschiach!!
I outlined exactly why I rejected these groups and others, and yes, PJ caught my drift. I support the gospel; not the works and elitism associated with these groups. It’s wasted money, to support them, for they are not centered on the gospel of Paul, but a Judaistic tradition. Aliyah and charities are in themselves aspiritual..and may be, and are accomplished by the saved and unsaved alike. I support the Gospel…Christ and Christ crucified.
You say that the groups mentioned are “born again”, as I. How can a group be born again? …and you mention a Jewish Messiah. Do you believe, as I said earlier, that He is not the one and the same gentile Messiah? I do. This means that the Arab and German are equal in God’s eyes, right along side with the JEW…one and the same. Otherwise, God would be a respecter of persons, wouldn’t He?….and if a person believed that the Jew was special, by bloodline alone, then is it not illogical to call that elitist?
If that were so, well then would the China-man require aliyah also? Would that make him eligible for salvation, to live in Israel? As I said…these groups are elitist,…[in general, realizing that there are good people everywhere..] and will not walk across the road to minister the gospel to a gentile, and see the Messiah primarily as a Jewish Messiah. In fact, they are not special, but must repent of their sins, and believe upon Jesus as myself, or you.
Paul, speaking to the pure bloodline of the Pharisaical Jews, said; “I know that you are of the seed of Abraham, but the deeds of Abraham you do not!”……….”You are of your father, the DEVIL”, He continued. Jesus is just as much the Messiah for the Palestinian as the Hebrew, and the Gospel makes that abundantly clear.
I am not discounting the Promises to Israel as a Nation, that will surely come to pass, but remember, “Not all of Israel are of Israel”…and a Jew is one circumcised in the heart, not the flesh….[bloodline..].
Like all professionals who are hired by groups are movements; take away their cash, and their feathers get ruffled. “If we let Him continue, the Romans will come, and take away our Nation, AND OUR PLACE.”…AND THEN THEY CONSPIRED HOW THEY WOULD KILL JESUS.
Jesus defined what they really coveted…honor and position…and of course this is not prejudicial to the Jewish Pharisee’s. It is the spirit of religion, that is universal, and alive and well…..and touch it…finger it, and watch it’s teeth being bared. It will attempt to assassinate everything that opposes it.
No i actually didn’t. I don’t allow those who post here to personally attack other’s who also comment. And your words were a personal attack against Tom, and not true.
If you notice, i allowed your accusation of antisemitism to go through in the post above–but i won’t do it again.
This is a Christian blog which attempts to honor Christ and the truth… neither of those things are done when one cannot lovingly and peacefully disagree theologically without unmerited accusations being tossed in. You are a follower of Christ–you should know this Aryu-gene.
Of course Christians should support evangelizing of all the lost, through out the world. Its our commission to take the gospel into the world (mark 16)
“After these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev. 19
God bless you on your journey…may God’s Holy Spirit lead you.
PJ,
If you believe and ascribe to the strange, twisted doctrine written in Tom’s last commentary, then both you and Tom are cursed. Rabbi Sha’ul (“Paul” was a name given him by the Greeks and means “short one”) never stopped being Jewish and never called himself a “Christian.” There were Messianic Synagogues up until the 4th century AD. Jesus said, “I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it”. He did not come to start a new religion called “Christianity”. He came to fulfill the Torah and the Prophets. I have been in the Messianic Jewish movement for eight years and I have never met anyone who comes close to fitting the description that Tom has of Messianic Jews. Tom is in deep doctrinal error. The Messianic Jews that I know, including my Rabbi, do not feel superior to Christians. Nor, do I. The bible simply makes it clear that the Jews are a distinct People, with a special covenant that God intends to fulfill.
And he did
The old covenant and promises were fulfilled….by and through Christ: his birth, sacrifice, death and resurrection. We that are in Christ are citizens of the ‘New Jerusalem’… a spiritual kingdom.
You scare me…no kidding. You say you do not feel superior to Christians–what the heck are YOU if not a Christian? You claim to be a believer in Christ–or else i misunderstood you totally. What do you think…that there are two people[s] of God? If you do, you are the one that’s in deep error and have twisted doctrine.
For 2000 years, since God enacted and put into place the new covenant, there has been only two people[s] on this earth– those abiding in Christ, and those who are not: the saved and the lost. Not 3 people[s].
Today there is one (1) people of God. There is no more “Jew” and “Gentile” racial distinctions by those in Christ. All in Christ are one. The Church is made up of people from all nations, races, and ethnic groups.
All are one–one body, one faith, one Lord and Saviour, one God, one Spirit.
There is no division in the body (the true Church) which God recognizes.
Rom 12:5 “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”
Col 3:10-11 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
“Israel” is now composed of all those who believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour–they all make up the people of God. Jews who accept Jesus and Gentiles who accept Jesus are now one in Christ, and from a spiritual point of view, both are “Israel”.
Being of the “Israel” of God is not defined by genealogy or a racial bloodline, but by having a blood relationship with Christ. The true Israel of God, is not of the flesh, but (of) the Spirit
Rom 3:21-22 “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference”
Rom 9:6-8 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Rom 2:28-29 “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Eph 2:11-18 “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit”
Rom 10:12 “For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile: the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,”
Gal 3: 25-29 “But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”.
The church has not replaced Israel, rather the church is the continuity of the old testament Israel of God; There is no more “Jew” and “Gentile” racial distinctions. Except in man’s eyes…(and within the erroneous teachings found in dispensational theology)
Gal 6: 15-16 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
Rom 4: 16-18 “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be”.
I don’t know what type of teachings you are caught up in, but they do not appear to be doctrinally biblical.
Whoever defines the terms wins the debate, don’t they? I am not allowing you to define the terms for me. I believe your definitions are ethnocentric, perhaps a little shallow, ill conceived and scripturally misunderstood. Let us start with the word, “Jesus”. It is an English translation of a Greek translation of a Hebrew word. “Yeshua”, on the other hand means, “salvation” in Hebrew. It is used over 60 times just in the O.T. Etymologically, the word “Jesus” really doesn’t have a meaning. While I respect the name “Jesus” as the universal word for the Son of God, do we really know for certain that he will be called by that name when He returns? Can you show me anywhere in scripture where His human identity ceases to be Jewish? You do agree that our Savior was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish home, honored and observed Jewish tradition and the Torah, don’t you? (He even celebrated Hanukkah, in John10:22,23). Where in scripture does it say that he is now half Jew and half Gentile and now calls Himself a “Christian”? He will not headquarter His millennial kingdom in the Vatican or in a Protestant seminary. It will be in Yerushalayim, a city founded by a famous Jew named David.
Let’s take the word, “Christian”. Why is it so inconceivable to you that one could be a Believer in Jesus, but not call himself a “Christian”? Who does Paul say has been entrusted with the very words of God? (Rom3:2) The Jews! They wrote the entire bible under divine inspiration, preserved and protected it for over 6,000 years. It is a Jewish book! Because historical events have taken place and God’s church has been established, do Gentile Christians now have copyright laws on the New Testament, dictating what its adherents must be called? “Christian” is only used three times in the New Covenant; and once in Antioch, it is used pejoratively by non-believers. Since thousands of Jews have been pillaged and slaughtered under the Christian banners, we in Messianic Judaism prefer to simply call ourselves, “Believers”. (As a side note, did you know that Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church?)
Lets talk about the “one body in Christ” from Rom.12. If you and I are both members of a fraternity of men, lets say the ELKs club. We may feel a strong sense of brotherhood with each other in that organization. We might comment to each other that when it comes to the ELKs club, you and I are ONE, in spirit and truth. But, lets say that you are a German and I am an Irishman. Would our membership in the Elks club completely eliminate our ethnic identity? Would we lose our individual distinctions, never wanting to go back to Ireland or Germany and identify with our heritage? The Jewish People are no better or worse that any other race or religion or ethnicity. They are simply a distinct People with a calling to be a blessing to the world. They have blessed the world in many ways, the greatest being through Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. I am not a dispensationalist. I believe that “the Israel of God” in Eph6 is referring to Jews who are circumcised both outwardly and inwardly. I believe that the root of the Olive Tree in Rom:11 is Yeshua and the branches are Israel and grafted in Gentiles. I, like you, am totally opposed to dual covenant theology and some of the weird and erroneous doctrines of John Hagee.
May I recommend a book by Don Finto called “Your People will be my People”
Don is a Christian pastor in Nashville who writes of his discovery of his Jewish Roots. It is a well balanced and powerful testimony. He has remained a Christian minister but is a good friend of Messianic Judaism.
Peace, in Messiah
My previous comment in reply to you was at least 95% scripture. If you have to debate someone Aryu-gene, its going to be God, for its his word you are disputing–
You can call yourself anything you want to.
I will say this though–it needs to be said:
How long do you (im assuming you are Jewish, but have a feeling you’re not) plan on staying on that train–the one which pulls out the “Jews were persecuted by those claiming Christ” placard? I have news for you–the train stopped at the station, many like myself who love Christ and the entire body of Christ, disembarked some time ago and boarded the forgiveness train.
No longer do believers toss out accusations about the mistreatment and persecution THEY received at the hands of unbelieving Jews in the early years of the new testament Church’s inception–its old news, under the blood of Christ–gone, etc…So why is it that those like yourself continue to toss out accusations against the church?
And now you tell me that you don’t call yourself Christian because of what occurred in the past? Hogwash..if you still have feelings like that its called un-forgiveness which is sin. My advice is repent.
Don’t you realize statements like you made, are exactly why its been so hard to evangelize lost Jews? Satan has used that type of mindset (and voice) not only to affect lost Jews, but in the hope of heaping false guilt upon the church of Jesus Christ–guilt, in the “hope” that it will stop the church from taking the gospel to Jews.
Out of this, has sprung dispensationalism, “Christian” Zionism, organizations like CUFI, etc etc…and also the horrid dual covenant theology which has sent thousands upon thousands of Jews to hell.
I have no guilt over what happened in the past, and neither do i carry any for what others may have done (wrong) in the name of Christianity.
I think you probably meant the verses i quoted from Galatians 6:
Gal 6: 15-16 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
and i disagree…
The Israel of God Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is writing about, is not the Israel after the flesh, but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith:
Galatians,
3:9 – So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
3:29 -And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans,
2:28 – For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 – But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Philippians,
3:3 – For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Each race is distinct, but once coming to Christ those distinctions are to be ignored. Why else would the word tell us:
Col 3:10-11 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Rom 3:21-22 “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference”
As far as lost Jews being distinct, they are ‘distinct’ in the same way any of people[s] of any races are, who don’t know Christ. They are lost. period.
As i said in a previous comment there are only 2 people today–those in Christ (saved) and those who are not (lost).
Christ is the only distinction between the two people[s].
You won’t know whether I’m Jew or Gentile until me meet together in Paradise with our Adonai and Savior. Of course, if the distinction between the two has been completely blurred and marginalized, then I guess it really shouldn’t matter which one I am. We will have an eternity to find the answers to some of these inscrutable, enigmatic questions. In the meantime, let us try to bring as many into the Kingdom with us as possible. You do it your way, and I’ll do it my way as the Ruach ha Kodesh leads us.
I bid you farewell and good blogging! You have a passionate heart for the Lord. May He always be glorified in you and through you.
Shalom
Amen amen!!!!
Thank you Aryu-gene…
Stop back any time…
God bless you
Lock the doors and turn off the lights!! He’s coming back!! Oh, no! Not Aryu… again?
Here is a commentary on Galatians 3:28 written by David Stern. I quote him verbatim from his book: “Gentiles, who, by trusting in Yeshua and staying faithful to him have become children of God, who have immersed themselves into the Messiah, who have clothed themselves with the Messiah, are equal partners with Jews in the Body of the Messiah, declared righteous by God without their having to adopt any further Jewish distinctives. This is a point Sha’ul makes repeatedly in his writings; many verses, especially in Romans, express this idea. Therefore Jewish and Gentile believers must treat each other as equals before God, of equal worth as human beings. So must believing slaves and freemen, and likewise believing men and women. And that is really all this verse has to say.
However, the verse is misused in polemic against Messianic Judaism in the following way: “You Messianic Jews should not separate yourselves from us Gentile Christians by having Messianic synagogues! Dont you know that ‘in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek’? So be like us, give up your Jewish distinctives, stop observing the Torah and the Jewish holidays, put all that behind you; and worship with us in our Gentile-oriented congregations, living our Gentile lifestyle.” The misuse is in concluding that because there is no distinction in God’s sight between the forensic righteousness of believing Gentiles and of believing Jews, therefore Jews are prohibited from observing God-given commandments.. Such a conclusion defies both logic and the practice of the early believers.
Further, it defies the grammar of the sentence itself. The sentence contains three parallel pairs: Jew…Gentile, slave… freeman, male…female. Obviously there are still observable physical, psychological and social distinctions between male and female and between slave and freeman (even today, there remain in the world millions of slaves), even though in union with the Messiah Yeshua they are all one, so far as their acceptability before God is concerned. The same is true of Jews and Gentiles: the distinction remains; the verse does not obliterate it.
The Bible recognizes such differences between various groups. The Torah has commands which apply to the king but not to his subjects, to priests but not other Jews, to men but not women. The New Testament too, has different commands for men and women, husbands and wives, parents and children, slaves and masters, leaders and followers, widows and other women (see ICor11:2-16, 14:34-36; Eph5;22-6:9; Col3:18-4:1; ITim3:1-13, 5:3-16 Heb13:7; IPet3;1-7); and it makes special demands of pastors, elders, deacons and evangelists which are appropriate to their offices but are never regarded as undermining the equality of all believers before God.
Similarly there remain differences between Jews and Gentiles, differences in cultural background and religious heritage, differences in what God has promised them as a people (but not racial differences, as antisemites claim), and differences in what they are commanded to do. It is not for Gentile Christians to try to prevent Jewish believers from taking cognizance of those differences and building their lifestyles in a way that reflects them, so long as the lesson of Galatians is heeded, which is that equality and fellowship in the Body of the Messiah between Jews and Gentiles must be nurtured and preserved. It is not that there is to be one race or one nationality, but one Messianic Community.
But nothing in the New Testament prevents a Jewish believer from choosing to worship with Gentile believers in a Gentile-oriented church; likewise nothing prevents a Gentile believer from choosing to worship with Jewish believes in a Messianic Jewish congregation. In either situation what the New Testament mandates is felllowship and equality between Jews and Gentiles in the Body.
Also, if Jewish or Gentile identity is suppressd, reconciliation is invisible and therefore is not a witness.” ~ end of quotation, from Jewish New Testament Commentary, copyright 1992 by David H. Stern~
Does this make sense to you, Mr. Miller?
Welcome back…
Aryu-gene, i actually own a copy of David Stern’s “Jewish New Testament Commentary”… i know its relied upon heavily within Messianic groups, for it was a gift (to me) from a friend who at the time, attended a Messianic Church.
One of the things i didn’t care for in the book (or agree with) were his comments such as you quoted from page 554 concerning Galatians 3:28:
I disagreed with him on the many occasions he attempted, in his promoting of Messianic Judaism, to apply different meanings to plain scripture–Gal. 3:28 was only one…
He also, in claiming there is no difference or separation between “Old” and “New” Testaments, discounts the huge difference between the old and new covenant[s] – :The law and grace.
He also states plainly his goal is to:
quote..
That’s hebrew roots movement teaching Aryu-gene…one and the same.
And it stands against what he wrote in his commentary:
If you have the time, do a search through the many older bible commentaries, written by well known bible scholars and teachers of the past: many of these are available on-line. Read what they say about the meaning of Gal. 3:28..
Then read the entire book of Galatians in context. Understand why Paul penned this letter in the first place, under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. Ask yourself ‘what was going on within the churches at Galatia at this time”
You will see that Paul’s concern, in writing was the perversion of the true gospel:
chapter (1)
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
He continues on in chapter 1 and 2 to explain:
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
20Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24And they glorified God in me.
continuing (chp.2)
1Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, “If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I know this is a lot of scripture–but its important to understand where Paul was coming from in his admonition to the Churches at Galatia. It helps us to understand his continuing words, when reading chapter 3:
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Which in turn gives us clear understanding of chapter 6 verses 15 and 16:
We should always allow scripture to interpret scripture…amen?
Paul spent time in the letter, as he did in most of his letters to the churches scattered abroad, not only lifting up Jesus Christ and him crucified, but striving to get across to all believers that there was no longer any distinction between believing (those who believed in Jesus) Jews and Gentiles. That Christ’s sacrificial death and covenant, made by his own blood, made any distinction found under the old covenant void and nil.
His concern in this case of the Galatian churches, were they were being bewitched by Judaizers.
Knowing this was the intent of this letter, do you truly believe the correct interpretation of “Israel” in verse 28 is concerning Jewish believers only or even Israel the nation?
Common sense and the content of the letter as a whole, says no… that Paul was in fact using the word Israel [as he did in other instances/ letters] to mean all those found to be in Christ Jesus.
Its evident in Paul’s letters he uses the word Israel in two completely different manners: at times he was writing of natural Israel, while at other times he used Israel in context with all those who believe by faith in Christ–the church.
David Stern writes:
What are the different promises and what are the different commands Aryu-gene?
When God’s word plainly says:
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. …..And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3
What were the commands Jesus gave first to his disciples and to the whole body:
I know the list is incomplete, but not in those commands above or (in) any of the other commands found in the teachings of Jesus do we see separate or different commands given to different ethnic groups.
Amen PJ!!!!
For ALL who are “In Christ, The Messiah of All” are One no
matter what label is applied! One In The Messiah,
Known as Christ Jesus for those of us who speak english!
ONE BODY of Believers!
As The Lord Said to Paul:
“Why Are YOU Persecuting ME?”
He did not say My Followers Who are This or My Flock
Who Are That,
He Said when you persecute My People,
those of the Faith of Abraham, The Remnent,
You Are Persecuting ME!
Blessings!
“Let us try to bring as many into the Kingdom as possible.”,,,Aryu-gene.
Well, Gene…that would be great if we were talking about the same kingdom. ..”I believe the Israel of God in Epho’ is referring to Jews who are circumcised both inwardly and outwardly.”…This obvious twisting of scripture, and the refusal to accept the many others…[that PJ so aptly pointed out..] that absolutely refute the elitist and racial salvation you adhere to, and puts you squarely in the camp of the lost. You are NOT saved!…for the light in you is darkness, and you walk blindly.
If I hated you, I would just walk away..as you threaten to do, but I do not hate you. There is still hope for you, if you repent…and learn how to love. The unrepentant Jew , as the unrepentant gentile, will enter the Kingdom of Satan, not the kingdom of Heaven, where Jesus rules. Whether you claim Jesus as Messiah or not, is immaterial. Your works and heart faith [..as defined in your responses..] do not agree with the Word, or the Spirit, and are not the TRUTH.
I want you to receive the love of the truth, for if you continue over and over again to reject it..you must be rejected by Yahweh..the Son Jesus…who is given all judgment. Paul rejected the Judiazers, whose desire was to mix Judaism and it’s laws and mandates…including circumcision…with the gospel of the grace of God.
These Judiazers became the enemy of Christ Jesus, and were branded as sons of the Devil. This is exactly what you have become; you didn’t begin like this, but were indoctrinated to become . You have become a convert, a proselyte, but I must tell you, it is not of Truth, Love, or the simple Gospel of the Savior. It is prejudicial, hateful and an enemy to the REAL.
God choose who He desires, but never the less, man must repent. You are serving dead religion, and it is a counterfeit opposed to the meekness and mercies of Messiah Jesus…who DOES love you, but does not endorse your present deception and religious hate ..for in the end, that is exactly what it is.
You need to be broken, and God has His ways; He is bigger than us. This is my prayer for you. In the end, Paul saw himself as the least of all saints, and the least of the Brethren, gentile or Jew. Consider what we are saying, for if we are right, your very soul hangs in the balance…and yes, that is the divide of the kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of Hell.
brother Tom Watkins.
Tom,
You have serious mental and emotional problems and need psychological counseling. You are a Jew hater who would probably have been comfortable in Hitler’s Nazi regime. I hope you find help soon, before you do any more damage to the Kingdom of God. I will spend eternity in Heaven with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the covenant keeping God) and God’s Son Yeshua. At this point, I’m not certain if YOU will be there…but I’m praying for you. Have a nice day.
Oy Vey!
PJ,
I’m impressed that you own Stern’s Commentary. It shows an open and curious mind. In defense of Stern, you may observe that, throughout his book, he always comes against “the legalistic interpretation of the Torah”. He also says that Jesus is not the “end of the law”, but He is “the goal at which the Torah aims”. Since Jesus said, “I did not come to abolish the law, but fulfill it”, Stern’s perspective makes perfect sense to me. When something is fulfilled it is ‘filled full’. Being filled full does not render a thing irrelevant, obsolete or useless. The law does not give us salvation, but is the foundation upon which Jesus built, illuminated and completed. Torah also teaches us righteous living. When Paul told Timothy in IITim3:16 that …”all scripture is God breathed and is useful in teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, etc. etc…., the New Testament had not yet been written. Timothy, at that moment, would have understood Paul’s reference to “all scripture” as being the Old Testament.
Now, about Galatians3:29. Here is a quote from Walvoord and Zuck, two respected bible scholars from Dallas Theo. Seminary in their book called,
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: “While some believe that ‘Israel of God’ is the church, the evidence does not support such a conclusion. First, the repetition of the preposition (‘upon’ or ‘to’) indicates two groups are in view. Second, all the 65 other occurrences of the term ‘Israel’ in the New Testament refer to Jews. It would thus be strange for Paul to use ‘Israel’ here to mean Gentile Christians. Third, Paul elsewhere referred to two kinds of Israelites–believing Jews and unbelieving Jews (Rom9:6). Lest it be thought that Paul is anti-semitic, he demonstrated by means of this benediction his deep love and concern for true Israel, that is, Jews who had come to Christ.” ~end of excerpt~
The fact is, none of us can be 100% clear about what Paul meant by “the Israel of God.” My salvation and sanctification does not rest upon the interpretation of this passage, nor should it. Whatever its correct meaning, it neither weakens or strengthens my position and standing within the Body of Christ. Remember that Galatians was Paul’s first epistle and he was still forming his theological paradigms. Some have called Galatians, “a short Romans”. It was also written just before the Jerusalem Council took place in Acts 15. Think of the amazing irony of that Council. Here were Jews who were faced with the perplexing dilemma of how to bring Gentiles into the Kingdom of Jesus without first making them convert to Judaism. (Of course, they came up with the Noahide laws) Now we have Christian Gentiles perplexed about how to bring Jews into the Body of Christ without making them convert to Christianity! Pathetic, isn’t it? Messianic Judaism assuages that dilemma for today’s Jews. They can worship in a synagogue and find their true Messiah who came to them FIRST. They don’t have to “convert” to another religion. They can see that the bible is one seamless book, and should not be two distinct books for two different religions. MJ’s are not trying to bring anyone back “under the law”. We simply choose to express our faith in a Jewish framework, the way many of the Apostles did and the way our Savior did. Everywhere Paul went as a missionary, he always taught and preached in the synagogues first. I really can’t understand why MJs are so disturbing to you and your friend, Tom. Unless you are just totally sold out to “supersessionism”. Jews who come to Jesus pay a high personal price. They are often excoriated and disowned by their families, rejected by unbelieving spouses, misunderstood by both the Jewish and Christian community. Their passion, commitment and love for Yeshua helps them over come all of those negatives, as they grow in faith and sanctification in a positive and loving environment within the Body.
In Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace)
p.s. I may have been a little hard on Tom, but he really set me off when he told me I wasn’t saved.
What must be taken into serious consideration is that John Walvoord and Zuck were both committed and profound dispensationalist. So their interpretation will naturally line up with those of John Nelson Darby.
If im not mistaken, in an earlier comment you wrote that you are not a dispensationalist, but it seems like you hold to the teachings…
One of the more interesting facts concerning dispensationalism i came upon [when studying the topic] was the influence it has had among Messianic Judaism. On the surface, its understandable, for one of the legs which supports dispensationalism, is the teachings of a continued distinction between believing Jews and the Church. (everyone wants to feel “different” or “special”, amen?)
But it goes completely against the unity of the body (the “one-ness” of the church) which is taught over and over in God’s word, under the new covenant.
It was this, among other issues, which caused me to totally discount dispensationalist teachings as error…
I’d still like to know what you believe are the different promises and different commands, given to gentile and jewish believers …
What are they?
You quoted Stern:
And i followed it up in my reply with scriptures which i believe refute his claim…
Sorry. I quoted Walvoord and Zuck regarding Galatians3:29. Their commentary was regarding Galatians 6:16. Hope this wasn’t confusing. I’ll get back to you on your last question later.
Looking forward to it Aryu-gene..
I wanted to add [in case you weren't aware] that Dallas Theological Seminary, which im sure is a fine school which has produced many good bible teachers/scholars (just because i don’t see eye to eye with some teachers on certain issues does not cause me to discount their other excellent teachings) has been known as a dispensationalist school for many years.
Under the article,”History of Dispensationalism” you’ll find it listed along with other institutions:
quote…
http://www.theologicalstudies.org/dispen.html
In Matthew 23:39, Yeshua, speaking SPECIFICALLY to His People in Jerusalem says: “…from now on you shall not see Me until you say, “Baruch ha ba b’Shem Adonai” (Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”). That is both a command (almost a threat) and a promise, given to Jews, and NOT to Gentiles.
In Matthew 25:39-45; I believe this refers to the judgement on the Gentile nations as to how they treat …”these brothers of mine”, the Jews, during the great tribulation. Again, a specific command to Gentiles but not to Jews.
Aryu-gene
This isn’t considered a command or promise, but it was a rebuke and judgment. Look at the context:
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
What is Jesus doing here?
He is: Rebuking the scribes and Pharisees, reiterating their crime of hypocrisy, and proclaiming guilt (and judgment upon) Jerusalem.
No, that is error my friend. In context:
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Who did Jesus say his brethren are Aryu-gene?
“… For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother”
Jesus is not speaking of his brethren being an ethnic group or race he is referring to all those who obey the Father: that would be those saved and abiding in Him.
When we as representatives of Christ, feed the hungry, give them drink, cloth then, visit them in prison, (in other words love them) we are doing all these things not only representing Christ, but TOO CHRIST as well!
When we fail to love people, we are failing to love our Lord and Savior.
I know you have stated you are not a dispensationalist, but i think if you really looked at their teachings you may be surprised to find out you are!
Do I care if you think I am a dispensationalist? Maybe I’m neutral on the issue. Its not black and white to me…and shouldn’t be to you, lest you unfairly judge everyone’s spirituality based on that one paradigm.
Yeshua also referred to His Mother as “His Mother” and John as His biological Brother when he was hanging on the execution stake. You can only speculate on Yeshua’s intended meaning in Matt25:40. Also, I believe you are wrong about Matt23:39. In my opinion, it is a PROMISE, plain and simple. To say it is a rebuke is really splitting hairs. Perhaps it is a rebuking promise, or a promising rebuke! It would take real spiritual arrogance and pride to claim to know conclusively what Yeshua’s intended meaning is here. You are not spiritually proud and arrogant, are you PJ?
You have been gifted by God with wisdom and spiritual discernment far beyond your years.
Opinions can get us into doctrinal error–especially when the meaning is clearly stated.
I took the time to post the verse mentioned within its context…which makes it very clear its not a promise.
To be told ” Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” verse 38, is a proclamation of judgment.
Not true. Scripture interprets scripture. Jesus made it very clear who his brethren are:
You can choose to ignore the scriptures which plainly tell us the truth, but it doesn’t change the truth.
When Jesus’ words are crystal clear, that is not arrogance, its common sense.
Because i read the word and accept it as it is? aryu-gene, you are welcome to think what you will of me. It doesn’t change what the scriptures plainly say…
When someone posts scriptures, and you still deny what they actually say, i don’t know what else to say to you.
Wow!! What are you telling me? That you don’t have opinions?! I see them all over your writings. Are you omniscient when it comes to knowing doctrine and hermeneutics? I thought only God was omniscient. You are a very gifted young man but be very careful to use those gifts with humility and grace; lest God humbles you in His own ways. No need to bother responding, unless you just simply MUST have the LAST WORD. And if you must, I will give you the last word.
I have exhausted my dialogue with you. I have learned a few things and hope you have also. I’m trusting we will share heaven together, and I have a feeling we could be good friends.
Baruch ha Shem Adonai,
Robert Eugene, ~a 65 yr. old Gentile, miraculously saved at the age of 39, healed of alcoholism and marriage restored. Have always had a heart for the Jewish People, even before I was saved.~ You might want to check out my Daughter’s blog: altchristian.wordpress. She is a brilliant and passionate seeker of truth and lover of Jesus, much like you.
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. Matthew 15:18
God bless you on your continued journey…
PJ Miller, a 62 yr old mother of 5 and grandmother of 8, who met the Saviour at the age of 32, when my real life truly began.
Aryu-gene:
Jesus Christ spoke exclusively to Jews, to whom He was sent so that He could be rejected by them, die for the sins of the world, and thereby fulfill the law and the prophets. It was the apostles, primarily Paul, that spoke to the Gentiles (as well as to the believing Jews). The brothers of Jesus Christ are those who believe in Him and keep His commandments whether Jew or Gentile, as Jesus Christ said so Himself. The people who reject Jesus Christ are not His brothers whether they are Jews or not.
As far as this “how the nations treat Jews during the great tribulation” … that is yet another area where premillennial dispensationalism causes a mishmash of confusion. It is more of this “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you” that was given to Abraham that the Pharisee Jews as well as the premillennial dispensationalists claim is a promise that was given to Jews on the basis of their inheritance. But we know from the book of Romans and the other New Testament epistles that these blessings belong to the spiritual descendants of Abraham, those who believe in Jesus Christ. Those promises were inherited by the children of Abraham by the spirit, believing Jews and Gentiles, and not the children of Abraham after the flesh.
There are no promises under the new covenant – and that is the covenant that we are dealing with, as the old covenant has been done away with because Israel did not keep its terms and inherited the curses spoken of in Deuteronomy, and we are under the new covenant as prophesied by Jeremiah – that will be given to both believing and unbelieving Jews based on shared genetic material with Abraham. The promises of the new covenant instead will be shared with believing Gentiles and believing Jews. The only promises that unbelieving Jews will inherit is judgment, and they will share in that judgment with unbelieving Gentiles.
Now I support Messianic Judaism as being a distinct form and expression of Christianity so long as it is Biblical. But I have to part ways with Messianic Jews who reject what Romans, Galatians, Colossians, Hebrews etc. plainly states and have basically co-opted the New Testament into their same corrupt Talmudic worldview, using the New Testament to become even bigger Pharisees than they were before. The comment above where “it is us Messianic Jews that will bring Jesus Christ back” … that is Talmudism and you know it. Let me ask you … when a Muslim converts to Christianity can he retain the Koran? When a Hindu converts to Christianity can he keep his old doctrines and beliefs? When a Scientologist or Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness converts to Christianity can they continue to follow L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, or Charles Taze Russell? When an atheist converts to Christianity can he still follow evolution and Nietzche? Instead of allowing premillennial dispensationalism to give you an excuse to hold onto Talmudism, you really do need to go study what Romans and Hebrews actually says and come out of it.
Now the Messianic Perspectives ministry, ran by the late Charles Halff and now run by Gary Hedric, they are premillennial dispensational, sure, but they will be the first to admit that the Talmud is just the speculation of Pharisee rabbis operating in spiritual darkness because they rejected the light of Jesus Christ. They state that the only use for the Talmud is for historical information and gaining insights on how some of the Jewish festivals and ceremonies were practiced, and even there they acknowledge that a lot of it was changed over the centuries to reflect evolving Jewish beliefs and practices, and also to do their best to obscure or deny the Jesus Christ typology.
Jesus Christ did not die on a cross so you could syncretize Christianity with Talmudic Judaism. Christianity and Talmudic Judaism are two separate religions just as are Christianity and Islam. Talmudic Judaism is not the Sinai Judaism, it isn’t Deuteronomy Judaism, it isn’t tabernacle Judaism, it isn’t first temple Judaism, it isn’t even the extremely flawed second temple/synagogue Judaism that was brought back from the sojourn in Babylon where the Jews had to do their best without a true priesthood and during the 400 silent years without revelation from the Holy Spirit. It is a completely different religion, entirely manmade, the product of rabbis working after all of their false messiahs and their rebellions failed, with their violence and bloodshed provoked the Romans into burning down the temple and ultimately Jerusalem, and killing nearly two million Jews in the process. Why did so many Jews die? Because they believed the rabbis. The rabbis told them that Simeon bar Kochba was the Messiah, the one whom the star prophecy of Balaam pointed to, and that through him God would save Jerusalem. The rabbis told them that the prophecies of Jesus Christ, that the temple and the city would be destroyed. So instead of believing Jesus Christ and His followers and fleeing to save their lives, they believed the rabbis and the false messiahs and died needlessly. And after 132 AD when the last little bit of hope was lost, these same rabbis blamed CHRISTIANS, saying that it was because of the idolatry of CHRISTIANS worshiping Jesus Christ as Messiah and God that brought defeat on their nation just as idolatry caused the nation to be defeated by the Romans, and that the CHRISTIANS delayed the coming of the Messiah, and that they had to go be faithful Pharisee Jews, following such nonsense as putting up eruvs (you know what an eruv is) and not being allowed to carry credit cards on the Sabbath so that by their WORKS they could cause the Messiah to come.
THAT is the religion, the false religion, that was created by the rabbis who rejected Jesus Christ then and now and continued to reject Him even after the temple fell in 70 AD and the city was burned with fire in 132 AD, that you are now trying to syncretize with Christianity. Consider how rebellious and wicked these people were. Even after the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD, and slaughtered so many Jews in the process, they continued to follow false messiahs like Bar Kochba for over 60 years! Even Josephus and Yochanan ben Zakkai warned them to stop following the false messiahs and trying to revolt against Rome, but they didn’t listen, and when they brought all that on their heads, they blamed the Christians, and wrote all sorts of blasphemies against Jesus Christ in their Talmud, and put a curse against Christians in their liturgy to drive the Jewish Christians out of the synagogue. And this is the religion that you wish to defile Christianity with through your syncretism?
Listen, if you want to be a Messianic Jew, fine. But you have to give up the lies that are in the Talmud. The Old Testament and the portions of the Talmud that are legitimate (meaning that they do not conflict with the clear meaning of the Old Testament and aren’t just the legalistic opinions and mystical speculations of rabbis with no Holy Spirit inspiration) are all that you need, and to tell the truth the Old Testament, which unlike the Talmud is Holy Spirit inspired, is all you need to be a Messianic Jew. Look, I have seen some of the pathetic attempts to interpret the Old Testament in those targums and some of the other writings. That stuff is ridiculous, completely absurd. You have to wonder what sort of mind a person needed to come up with that stuff, and it should make you embarrassed to be associated with it. You should have the same aversion to that nonsense as Christians do with Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, and other liars and frauds.
Keep interpreting the gospels and the New Testament using the Talmud as a filter, construct, metanarrative, or whatever those fancy words that the literary critics use. The result will be your being twice the son of hell. Now that is Matthew 23:15, and I’d like to see you claim THAT verse was aimed at Gentiles rather than Jews.
Quoting John Valvoord … that is the problem. Valvoord is a Cyrus Scofield guy through and through, and Scofields doctrines WERE NOT the doctrines of John the apostle, the man whom God used to write Revelation to begin with. We know this from A) John’s own writings and B) disciples of John like Polycarp. Why you take the doctrines of the GENTILE Scofield who lived EIGHTEEN HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE TIME OF CHRIST over the doctrines of John, a Jew who walked with Christ for years, you are going to have to explain that to me. Given the choice between believing Scofield and Valvoord or John and Paul, and you choose Scofield and Valvoord. Why? Because Scofield and Valvoord allow you to hold onto the traditions of men that deny the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles.
You could have saved yourself a lot of apologetic writing if you had researched the tenets of the MJAA. We strictly follow biblical Judaism and reject talmudic Judaism. We refer to it at times to point its error or when it supports scripture, but that is rare. We are not under the Sinai covenant but the B’rit Chadashah (New Covenant). We observe Jewish Holy Days , liturgy, worship and Saturday Sabbath just like Yeshua did… not the man made traditions of Christmas and Easter that Christians devised. Show me in scripture where Rabbi Sha’ul (“Paul” was a name given him by the Romans, not by God) ever declared himself no longer a Jewish Rabbi, but a “Christian Apostle”. That is a man-made term by those who want to eradicate the Jewishness of the bible and marginalize those who were entrusted with “the oracles of God”. If the old covenant has been done away with how do you explain Zech.14:16-21? How do you explain…”heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORD will endure forever”? Does he mean just PART of His Word…or ALL of it? Like you, I believe the “Brothers” of Yeshua are those who believe in Him and keep His commandments, whether Jew or Gentile. But He did not always use the term “Brothers” in that context. When He was on the execution stake he referred to Yochanan as His biological brother and Miriam as His biological Mother. At times He was all-inclusive, other times He wasn’t. I’m afraid you are a “replacement theologian” and you probably never will change until the Lord returns. We are dealing with issues on which…”the angels long to look”. We simply don’t have all the answers yet. I, and others in the Messianic Movement know that we are redeemed by the precious Blood of Messiah, that He is the final atonement for our sins and that we will spend eternity with Him on a new earth and in a New Jerusalem. We do not wish to minimize or dispute all of the marvelous, miraculous and amazing things God has done through the Church and through sincere Gentile Christians. That is the nub of the matter. I look forward to sharing heaven with you, and I appreciate the time you and PJ have taken to dialogue with me. I know in my spirit that you are both passionate followers and lovers of Jesus. We simply disagree on facts and perceptions of church history, some doctrines, interpretation and special covenant that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the covenant keeping God) will keep with His People and their Land.
Baruch ha Shem Adonai! (Blessed be the Name of the Lord)