Shining the Light on those who promote Insurrection.
Insurrection: the act of rebelling against an established authority; organized opposition to authority; a conflict in which one faction tries to wrest control from another; an organized rebellion aimed at overthrowing a constituted government through the use of subversion. (link)
- Promoter- NEWSMAX
From an article posted today: Obama Risks a Domestic Military ‘Intervention’
quote..
There is a remote, although gaining, possibility America’s military will intervene as a last resort to resolve the “Obama problem.” Don’t dismiss it as unrealistic. If a military coup does occur here it will be civilized. That it has never happened doesn’t mean it wont.
(*Why?)
-Officers swear to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Unlike enlisted personnel, they do not swear to “obey the orders of the president of the United States.”
-Top military officers can see the Constitution they are sworn to defend being trampled as American institutions and enterprises are nationalized.
-They can see that Americans are increasingly alarmed that this nation, under President Barack Obama, may not even be recognizable as America by the 2012 election, in which he will surely seek continuation in office. (etc..)
Imagine a bloodless coup to restore and defend the Constitution through an interim administration that would do the serious business of governing and defending the nation. Skilled, military-trained, nation-builders would replace accountability-challenged, radical-left commissars. Having bonded with his twin teleprompters, the president would be detailed for ceremonial speech-making.
Military intervention is what Obama’s exponentially accelerating agenda for “fundamental change” toward a Marxist state is inviting upon America. A coup is not an ideal option, but Obama’s radical ideal is not acceptable or reversible…
***
God is ultimate authority - Rom. 13:1
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God”
Our responsibility – 1 Timothy 2:1-3
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;”
Legitimate cause for civil disobedience – Acts 5:28-29
“..Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine,… Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men”
Resisting God’s Sovereignty – Romans 13:2
“Consequently, he who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves”
My choice to spotlight NEWSMAX was based on knowing many Christians visit the website to gain news and information.
- Promoter – How To Take Back America Conference
From the workshop, “How to recognize living under Nazis & Communists.”
Werthmann explained how universal healthcare, the Equal Rights Amendment, and increased taxes were telltale signs of Nazism.
Werthmann told her Christian audience:
“..Germany was a 100% Christian nation. [...] (so) keep your guns, and buy more guns, and buy ammunition. [...] Take back America” (video)
*UPDATE* See: Phyllis Schlafly Endorses Bloody Revolution; Columnist Plans For Armed Coup
**
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
¶ Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Is. 61.2
¶ Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Ps. 37.11
¶ Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Is. 55.1, 2
¶ Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
¶ Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Ps. 24.4, 5
¶ Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
¶ Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: 1 Pet. 3.14 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
¶ Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 1 Pet. 4.14
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets 2 Chr. 36.16 · Acts 7.52 which were before you.
¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Ex. 21.24 · Lev. 24.20 · Deut. 19.21 but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, Lev. 19.18 and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
"If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord's will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumption, but it is your duty to assure him that he is not saved. Do not suppose that the Gospel is magnified or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Savior, while they are wedded to their idols, and their hearts are still in love with sin. If I do so I tell them a lie, pervert the Gospel , insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."
No longer surprised about this kind of outburst. But they need to remember the seeds you plant you’ll surely reap. They can choose their utterances and actions but cannot choose it’s consequences. If Germany was 100% christian how did the Nazis rise? Just curious. A friend of mine has said it is these politico-religious folks that will usher in the persecution. either by doing it themselves or essentially instigating the the society against true Christianity. Already, where I work as far as they are concerned republican equal evangelical christian.
Joel made a very interesting point about that very thing Yemi, at his blog today:
Isn’t this what we’re seeing in America today?
The deception is, the Christians here today screaming the loudest about ‘Nazi-ism’ and ‘taking back America’ (by any means, including insurrection, militancy, rebellion, etc), are the ones operating in the very same spirit.
I agree with your friend.
I can’t find this article at the link you gave, PJ. Can you maybe be more specific?
Cheryl, they removed it, but not before quite a few people posted it or like Joel did, made a hard copy.
You can find links to the article posted now at Joel’s blog:
Phyllis Schlafly Endorses Bloody Revolution; John Perry Calls For Armed Coup
PJ, they took the article down, but I have it linked, and a hard copy if you ever need it.
I just saw that too Joel… im glad they did, but its too late. Its out there in cyberspace now!!
I added an update to my OP with the link to your post, plus linked to it in my comment above. Not only because you have links to the article, but Joel, you made some very important observations im hoping others will read concerning the recent “How To Take Back America” conference.
Last night i read another insightful look into the agenda at that conference:
Article: Panel Agrees Obama Is The ‘First Muslim American President’
It was the Jews for Germany, it’s the Democrats for us, PJ
PJ, it only gets worse, doesn’t it?
Unless God intervenes, im afraid so Joel.
We’ve been talking about God sending judgment upon America for the last few years…this may be the beginning of it.
Joel, i grow more shocked every day that so many Christians are actively involved in or support the type of rebellion, fear mongering, and insurrection we are witnessing from the extreme far-right. They do not understand that by doing this, they have become enemies of the Cross.
I read a very interesting but disturbing thread the other day…i wish i could recall where. (if i think of it i’ll post the link)…
People were discussing the alienation they were feeling from family members and friends, caught up in the extreme right-wing groups. How they could sense they had become ‘enemies’ now in the eyes of these friends and loved ones because they did not agree with their views on taking America back, etc etc…
Joel, it was odd. I hope i can recall where i saw that thread…
The point is, i think in the minds of these folks mentioned in the OP, anyone…including other Christians, who are not with them, are against them–that they are the ‘enemy’…
Do you know what i mean?
But these are the folks who have been listening to garbage like this (Military coup fantasy is latest in trend of extremist right-wing rhetoric) in the media, for well over a year:
Google’s cache has a copy of the article removed at NEWSMAX
Obama Risks a Domestic Military ‘Intervention’.
Wow! I am speechless….it just gets worse…much of it in the name of Christianity. What a stain on the body of Christ to be affiliated in any way with such horrible discourse.. I said before, this presidency is sifting the country but it is really sift the church like never before.
Just really sad…..
Barbara, it sure looks like it. Whatever the outcome of all this [for the Church in America] its looking more and more likely we’ll all know “who’s who” by the time this ends.
God’s shaking the ‘family’ tree.
didn’t I see a link to black liberation theology on here some where, maybe under apostasy watch. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. call what is dark dark and light light. really don’t hold back on anything for fear of someone thinking you maybe a little one sided. The truth is our government is evil and if God put them in office for a reason, which he has, you should look to his word for answers.
Answers that tell of a beast as Daniel spoke of and a beast as John spoke of.
no pun intended but call a spade a spade as long as your bringing every body eles to light., what do y’all think this government is some kind of saint…Pray for them the same way you would pray for an enemy, that Gods well would be done, and pray that he would deliver us from pride.
Jonathan,
The President has not expressed a desire in Black Liberation Theology, as speaking as white man, frankly, BLT has a lot to offer us. The West did not invent Christianity.
I happen to like the President, and believe, and hope, that he will fulfill his promises. If not, God is still the judge and the King of Kings.
This would be a good Psalm to ponder “deeply” if these sorts of news stories cause you some instability?
Note well the next to the last verse. If these United States come to ruin, by this Psalm, you will know why:::>
Psa 146:1 Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD, O my soul!
Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.
Psa 146:5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
Psa 146:6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever;
Psa 146:7 who executes justice for the oppressed, who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free;
Psa 146:8 the LORD opens the eyes of the blind. The LORD lifts up those who are bowed down; the LORD loves the righteous.
Psa 146:9 The LORD watches over the sojourners; he upholds the widow and the fatherless, but the way of the wicked he brings to ruin.
Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign forever, your God, O Zion, to all generations. Praise the LORD!
Pj,
I’m just as disturbed as you are about this revolution sort of thing, peaceful or not. Working within the system, as a country, we have managed for over 200 years (approve of it or not,) to prove that is this what has separated ourselves from all the senseless revolutions and unrest that has gone within other countries. However, any website that publishes this article, whether they agree with it or not, (especially Christian ones) should also think about deleting it themselves, if only just not to contribute to the present unrest and dissatisfaction with our government that it has caused.
Just saying we should practice what we preach, and not even inadvertently contribute to it , whether we think we are \right or not in our biblical assessment of it, because I’m sure the other side thinks they are just as right too.
Fair is fair, and if we are expecting them to retract , we should be willing to as well.
MBaker,
I believe that calling these out for what they post, and calling to mind what they have written is important – just as the Prophets did in the OT.
I, for one, will not quote it all, but showcase some of it. Otherwise, you wouldn’t believe the amount of people who simply do not believe it.
Very sad indeed in rebellion over the authority of which Our Lord put in authority over us. Again, this earthly kingdom isn’t ours but professing christians are fighting a battle against the god of this age, taking and using the name of Our Lord. But many will be using the name of the Lord doing things in His Name but Our Lord says He NEVER knew them.
Kelli
What you wrote above is such profound insight I am going to highlight it as it bears repeating:::>
“….Again, this earthly kingdom isn’t ours but professing christians are fighting a battle against the god of this age, taking and using the name of Our Lord….”
I just finished for the umpteenth time reading Martin Luther’s small work, “Freedom of the Christian”.
Christianity, it seems to me, has lost her way with the devils in the world and in the United States, the age we live in, forgetting that God has a battle plan that “works”!
His battle plans always, always, always work!
Here is some of “Freedom of the Christian” that seems to me underscores your point:::>
“….As Christ by His birthright has obtained these two dignities, so He imparts and communicates them to every believer in Him, under that law of matrimony of which we have spoken above, by which all that is the husband’s is also the wife’s. Hence all we who believe on Christ are kings and priests in Christ, as it is said: “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.” (1 Pet. ii. 9.)
These two things stand thus. First, as regards kingship, [115] every Christian is by faith so exalted above all things, that, in spiritual power, he is completely lord of all things; so that nothing whatever can do him any hurt; yea, all things are subject to him, and are compelled to be subservient to his salvation. Thus Paul says: “All things work together for good to them who are the called” (Rom. viii. 28 ); and also; “Whether life, or death, or things present, or things to come: all are yours; and ye are Christ’s. (I Cor. iii. 22, 23.)
Not that in the sense of corporeal power any one among Christians has been appointed to possess and rule all things, according to the mad and senseless idea of certain ecclesiastics. That is the office of kings, princes, and men upon earth. In the experience of life we see that we subjected to all things, and suffer many things, even death. Yea, the more of a Christian any man is, to so many the more evils, sufferings, and deaths is he subject; as we see in the first place in Christ the first-born, and in all His holy brethren. …”
The United States is not the “Holy Christian Church”. The “Holy Christian Church” resides in the United States and what She is called to suffer is not anything like what the United States has or will suffer as a nation for her rights and wrongs in this life. What the political powers do does not in any way affect what God does with, in and by His Church in any country, ever, including the United States.
So, from where I sit when you write above: “….this earthly kingdom isn’t ours but professing christians are fighting a battle against the god of this age….”, you touch on the central issue or wrong some professing Christians are doing when they think it right to battle any earthly kingdom. They simply are battling against the god of this age, who, coincidentally has been defeated already by Christ.
The Church should fight the “good fight of Faith”. Afterall it is the Faith we have been given that overcomes the world!
Joel,
I don’t believe calling anyone out for their wrongful beliefs is a bad thing unless we are doing in uncharitably and on a one-sided basis. Both extremes, in their own ways, are just as wrong. While I don’t agree with some on this website that think it is wrong for Christians to be concerned politically, I do understand and even give them the same leeway that would I hope they will give me as someone who is concerned about the difficult issues facing our country today , but is not into extremes on ether side..
What I am saying is that we Christians need to be careful that we aren’t going to the other extreme, and therefore being just as intractable in our way as they are in theirs. Both ways can be a turn off to unbelievers, who are looking to us for guidance in these perilous times.
Somehow, I don”t think the Lord would approve of either extreme.
Yes they are; I’m assuming you’re speaking strictly of politics–extreme left and right(?). But please understand, im not.
I’m posting to Christians about Christians who are involved in the extreme Christian-right. And trying to point out the spiritual dangers involved…
When or if i ever come across a website or article promoting dangerous governmental insurrection, by an extremist -left-wing Christian group, it will get posted. (The key word being “Christian”).
So far that hasn’t happened mbaker. Extremist left-wing political groups and Christians haven’t (so far) had much if anything, in common.
So in the meantime i post about such as this…
-A news website NEWSMAX, which many Christians use, which posted a dangerous “wish-fantasy” article concerning the US military pulling a coup and taking over the White House and government.
-And, a conference in which both Christians and the politicians who want their support, gave talks on such topics as Obama is a Muslim, and “buy guns and ammunition!’…because you may one day need both to fight off the “socialist- nazi” government in order to “take America back”.
One of my goals here–speaking of the blog, is not to try to be politically balanced or politically “correct”. But to post what i see as dangers to the Church, along with hopefully, some encouraging (or even challenging) messages. Its for those purposes, i believe God led me to start up this blog.
Yes i agree Joel. If every-time we shine a light on them, they quickly scamper back deeper into the darkness, that doesn’t mean we should turn off the light.
I’m a firm believer that God uncovers and unmasks things things in the dark, so we will not only see them, but are aware of their workings.
“But everything exposed by the light becomes visible” Eph.5
TBN is promoting this…
Hi sis,
got a question. Do you also see the first american revolution as sinful? Why or why not?
Thanks
Larry
Larry, more knowledgeable Christian minds (then mine) have debated that for years.
This was an interesting thread on the topic, based on a teaching by John MacArthur and the thoughts of Brannon Howse. LINK
Here is a link to the full text of The Declaration of Independence where the colonists list all of their reasons for revolting against Britian.
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
Our nation NEEDS some Samuels and Nathans…pointing their finger and saying “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change His mind.” I Sam. 15:29. And in II Sa. 12:7 “You are the man!”
That is the job of not just prophets and preachers, but ALL Christians. Many Christians are so used to a flowery Gospel that when an “in your face” Christian begins to tell the truth, they are deeply offended. We care more about offending our lost friends than their eternal damnation!
Ruth, you’re right. All of us should expose the darkness…especially when that darkness is proclaiming itself to be part of the Church.
It will offend others. But we have to obey God. We shouldn’t allow ourselves to be silenced for fear of offending others.
Joel,pj,
you must remember that the powers that we war with are the same power that has taken those who are with out captive,and they are under the power of the devil and are taken captive by him at his well.
Joel you need to ask your self why did obama leave the BLT church he belonged to? Was it because it has its roots in the liberation theology that is reaping havoc over South and Central Americas. Was it because the media brought into the light the hate that it is generating, Or was it because he didn’t want the socialistic views that it puts forth which are Marxist at heart showing thats what he is really about. But I would dare say that it is walking in the love of God. But more of the order of give me mine.
Anyway with his leaving it didn’t show strong convictions for it or he would have stayed there not being a man pleaser/politician that he is.
You also have to look at who the man has surrounded him self with in his office as well. If you can’t see it I can’t help you too.
Yes government is evil under evil men or it wouldn’t have lead the country to were it is now. But that doesn’t take away from the purpose of God. Because just like Pharaoh he will show his power through them to all the world. And we as Christians walking in HIS perfect light we need to pray that his well be done.
Jonathan,
Lets stick with the topic. I’m not going to allow this to turn into an anti-Obama thread.
thanks.
What is this promoting? (Huckabee was also a speaker at the recent Take back America Conference)
PJ, you asked what it was promoting?
Well, to the one, an agenda, theirs, and to the other, an agenda, theirs.
Are both wrong or right?
Both!
Neither of these groups, the MSNBC trio or the former Governor, advance one bit the Gospel of the Kingdom.
I have had my share of exchanges and intersected with heads of State around the world and one thing they and we have in common, which really is God’s standard, believe it or not, is this, “the poor we have with us always”.
There is a high and holy standard for that, taught in the Old and New. One would have to concede to idealogy to believe we will not have any poor among us, which is what political agendas hype and make promise to irradicate.
When Jesus says, “the poor you will have always” isn’t good enough and you build your platform around irradicating Jesus’ own words, you do have a problem only the Triune God can solve.
Here’s my proffer for solving that poor problem. It ain’t pretty, but it is the only one I have found in the Bible passively admitted:::>
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Mat 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
That may be to broad an answer for you, however, I am not trying to take the side of MSNBC or Huckabee!
Wow, that rhymed, “MSNBC or Huckabee!”
That is the topic, if these people think that they are going to get some kind of a righteous government that is going to make things right they have no farther to look than their own hearts to show how wrong that ideal is. Now Huckabee how is he ever going to get in there when the vote of the people reflects their hearts desires. Our elected officials represent the country’s desires, that shows that our country as well as our government is evil. All you have to do is turn on the TV to see that.
Actually the topic is concerning those promoting insurrection Jonathan. But i do agree, no government is righteous.
AHA! I’m sure you’re right Michael.
I had read that Huckabee closed out the last night of the take back America conference with a speech. Knowing he had said the above in a speech from last year, i was wondering if he spoke on the same thing at the conference. About changing the constitution.
Frankly, i think all these people are nuts.
Hi Michael
Well I know I was caught up in this battle for a time but the Lord showed me differently. What ever which is of the Lord’s faith His persuasion is of spiritual good but what we do in our flesh as born again believers will be burned up but we have eternal life. We don’t lose our salvation.
The battle here is spiritual and too many are not under the persuasion of Our Lord but fighting the battle in the flesh. Satan and his disciples are distracting born again believers and getting our minds and thoughts on the things of this world. What ever is not of “the faith” (His persuasion) is sin.
Yes Michael, Satan has already been defeated but others think it is our duty to take over for Our Lord God and to win the world for Christ through the political system which is of the world. The flesh is always attempting to be of spiritual good but we know in our flesh is of no good thing.
PJ,
I was doing a little looking around on the web this a.m. because I was remembering reading about some of what these links are about.
These first two links are about Christian leaders that are heavily supporting and promoting, sometimes in a very political way, the current health care reform plans.
Phttp://www.essence.com/news_entertainment/news/articles/black_church_leaders_support_obamas_healthcare_reform/#
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/79901_113333_ENG_HTM.htm
The next links are a bit more radical. These are church leaders very actively promoting hate crime legislation. They claim to be transgender faith leaders.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/aroundtheworld/2009/04/dallas-pastor-to-join-team-lobbying-congress-for-gay-rights/
http://www.gayagenda.com/2009/04/transgender-faith-leaders-lobby-for-hate-crime-bill/
I guess my whole point is that it isn’t only the Christian right that is heavily engaged in politics. The church across the board is deeply involved.
Someone may be interested in reading this below. It speaks volumes.
First i want to say something about the intro. This Christian alluding to them self as they do, has become a theme recently: hinting at being ‘watched’, etc. As is the bragging of “I don’t care” etc etc etc…I’m seeing it everywhere on certain segments of the internet recently, where extreme right-wing Christians post. To me, its an attempt to elevate ones-self (and others who are like-minded) to a place of importance…as much as it is paranoia.
I hear it coming from Glenn Beck as well. Always referring to “them” and “they”…in reference to “i know ‘they’ are out to get me”….or “im telling you now, ‘they’ may shoot me in the head”.
My point is there is something seriously delusional about this–this desire to paint oneself as a victim in ones own mind, and to portray that to others.
Anyway, this below was written in response to Jim Bramlett posting the article i refer too in the OP; the one which fantasized about a military coup.
Bramlett had posted it yesterday, adding that it had since been removed at NewsMax. He of course added his own paranoid belief that its removal was not the doing of NewsMax, but it had been removed by “them”. (LOL…I’m sorry…sometimes i just can’t help laughing).
quote…
OK, you’re a a conspiracy nut.
Now think about all the Christians out there today which are attending conferences, like the recent Take back America conference, where they are being encouraged to “BUY GUNS and Ammunition…take AMERICA BACK!”…on one hand, and on the other are being told that Obama isn’t our first black president, but our first Muslim President.
And that’s just one recent event folks. I get invites daily to these type of meetings in my email.
Put them together with extreme right-wingers writing articles about a ‘coup’…which goes so far as to lay down step by step how it ‘could’ happen. Toss in a Glenn Beck, (which these people are now seeing as a “prophet” sent by God–and no, sadly, im not kidding)
And then finally, dump it all into the minds of frightened Christians, like the guy above.
What are you going to get folks?
Hi Sis,
The reason I asked about the Revolutionary War is because I forsee a time when we may need another revolutionary war to restore freedom in our country.
Now…. don’t get excited about that statement, because I don’t see us as being there yet. We still have free elections and free speech, and with those we can have a bloodless revolution every several years. I wonder, though, how much longer those freedoms will last.
You’re absolutely right that most people are scared silly. I think they’re more “startled” than scared, though.
For the last several decades, there’s been a slow communist revolution taking place in our country. This was first proposed by Gramsci, who argued that a slow march through the cultural institutions of a country was more effective than a bloody revolution in bringing a country into marxism.
You can read a paper I wrote about this at:
http://adventureswithlarry.com/articles/art_march.php
What’s happening now is that we are at the tail end of this slow (and successful) revolution.
Those of us who were already aware of what was happening aren’t startled about what’s happening today because we saw this as the inebidable conclusion of the matter.
However, a huge number of Americans are just now waking up to the fact that America as we knew it is very quickly changing into something we don’t know, and it frightens people.
It’s probably too late to do much about this until it reaches it’s conclusion. Undoubtedly, we have become incredibly socialist, and will continue down that road for the next year, anyway.
The first question is can we stop that progression through the democratic process? I hope that we can.
If not… if the process has become too corrupted or if it get’s suspended altogether, than the only possibility for a restoration of our traditional freedoms would be another american revolution (or civil war).
Now we get into all sorts of sticky issues about whether it’s alright for a Christian to fight a war agaist a tyrannical and evil form of government. Is it a sin for a captive to fight for frredom? is it wrong for a slave to run away from his master? Is this insurrection against a God ordained government or is it simply self-defense against a cruel bully?
The question is further complicated by those of us who were in the military because we swore a lifetime oath to defending the constitution.
Is it more sinful to fight against an oppressive government, or more sinful to break an oath. Which action would make us “traitors” in God’s eyes?
Lots of questions…..
Larry i think the very best thing we as Christians can do, is continue to stay in peace, trusting God. Now i know to many that sounds Pollyanna-ish, but its not…
Because regardless of what the future holds, either here or elsewhere in the world, we will enter into a season one day, when we will ‘have’ to depend totally upon God. And the best time to be practicing that peaceful trusting abiding, and strengthening of our faith, is now; before that day suddenly comes upon us.
Our first allegiance is to God and his word.
Think the problem is that there are many earth dwellers and not pilgrims just passing through. We have been set free if Christ indwells us.
Amen PJ Our first alligiance and submission is to God and His Word. Fear God and not man.
Hi Sis,
You said:
“Our first allegiance is to God and his word.”
Well that kind of goes without saying, sis, but what I’m saying is that there are some pretty darned honest differences about what His word says in this instance.
You just kind of dismissed everything I said and decided to question my allegience instead, when you know me and you know where my allegience lies.
You may not see it, but some of us who truly love Jesus are struggling with this, and we’re trying to make good Godly decisions based upon what the Word of God says about keeping oaths, not being traitors, being good citizens (in a republic this is part of honoring our Government) and providing for our households.
I understand – and respect – the understanding you came to, and believe that you came to it based upon your desire to serve God and your love for and allegience to Jesus.
Are you willing to grant the same benefit of the doubt to me?
Larry
Larry, beloved ‘little’ brother, you know i would never in a million years question your allegiance to God. We may not have ever met face to face, but over the years (and through a trial or two together, LOL) i’ve come to know you, and know your heart is steadfast toward God.
What i said:
Our first allegiance is to God and his word
was in response to the last part of your post:
The question is further complicated by those of us who were in the military because we swore a lifetime oath to defending the constitution.
Is it more sinful to fight against an oppressive government, or more sinful to break an oath. Which action would make us “traitors” in God’s eyes?
My point was, regardless of any oath we may make to country, etc, our first allegiance (and/or oath) to God has to come first if we want to walk according to his word.
you see what i meant now?
Forgive me for not explaining myself better L…
Larry, as someone who never served in the military, im sure i don’t understand….but i do know God will show you his will in the matter, because you’re seeking him for an answer.
Sometimes we are not 100% sure when it concerns certain situations which are not laid out plainly & clearly (with a yea or nay), in the scriptures. But its been my experience that when the questioned issue/situation really arises, and we are forced to decide then and there on the spot, God will give us the answer.
Thanks for clarifying this, sis.
We’re in a very strange time. I understand the revulsion you see with the extremities, but there are very good Christians on both sides of the fence in the political arena right now. I believe that there are many people on both sides who are being motivated by a strong desire to serve The Lord. When we summarily dismiss those who disagree with us as full of hate or earth dwellers, we conveniently abandon logic and reason and persuasion in favor of ad hominem attacks.
During the Civil war, we had two men – both deeply committed to God – fighting on both sides. Abraham Lincoln was convinced that God wanted him to do whatever he could to hold the union together, while Robert E. Lee was convinced that God expected him to remain loyal to his home state of Virgina.
Who was right?
I believe both men were. They were both acting in accordance with their conscience. They both did what they believed God wanted them to do. Lee wasn’t in favor of secession, and could have commanded the entire Union army, but turned it down to do what he believed God expected of him. He was a fine man and a fine Christian. History may remember him as a “hater”, a “racist” or an “earth dweller”. I’ve read through some of his personal letters, and I know him simply as a humble “brother in The Lord” who did an exctremely right thing in a very tough situation. I believe we’ll be seeing him in heaven.
We’re in a very similar time now. While no shots have been fired, we’re in a civil war of sorts. This is a serious war being fought for serious reasons. Like the civil war, issues are not entirely black or white.
Let me give you an example:
One might take the view that we simply need to trust God and submit to whatever authority is in power at the moment.
Easy enough, except what if one sees a government acting outside of the constition. This was the document that we used to grant the federal government power to begin with. We, the people, have not authorized the federal government to go beyond these powers.
Does this change anything?
It would be akin to if I contracted with a plumber to come into my house to replace my old plumbing. We have a signed contract. While in my home, he insisted upon making lewd comments toward my wife and my daughter.
Would I still be bound by the contract? The man has become a menace and danger to my family.
I believe the Federal government – mostly under George Bush -but continuing under President Obama, has become just such a menace.
One might say “well, this is the authority which God placed over you, so simply trust God and submit”.
Well that seems clear enough, except that the bible also teaches that a man should provide for those of his household. I believe that this provision means more than food or shelter, it also means security and safety and opportunity, as much as is possible.
See, sis, it’s nowhere near as simplistic as you’re making it. Was WND wrong to publish that article? I would say that they are premature.
What they were basically saying is that the officers in our military swore an oath to protect and defend the constitution, and that some top officers may feel obligated to step in and do so.
I don’t object to this on principal, but I don’t think we’re at that point yet.
Let’s look at a possible scenario, though, where a Hitler type character gets elected, begins rounding up African Americans and sending them to concentration camps where they are being gassed in furnaces. Further, this mad man has summarily suspended elections, and dismissed the House of Representatives.
Under such a scenario, what would the righteous path be for our generals?
Under such circumstances, I pray that a General who knows Jesus would step up to the plate and seize control of the government – even through force and bloodshed.
In fact, I believe that it would be sinful for that general to not do anything.
My only beef with what WND wrote is that they believe such a time has come, while I don’t believe we’re there yet.
Don’t know why you have a problem with the word earth dwellers, the Word calls people who are not saved earth dwellers and those of us who are pilgrims just passing through.
Hi Kelli,
I don’t have any problem with the word “earth dwellers” except as it’s used to attack and dismiss sincere Christians who are trying to be actively engaged with the world around them.
We were instructed by our Lord to be salt and light to the world. I don’t think He ever told us to withdraw from everyday life, but to bring his Light out into the world. We are to be “In the world”, not “of the world”.
The difference between being “in” and “of” is that we look forward to the promise of eternal life with Jesus. That life already began with me, and will continue until eternity. We set our minds on the things above (HIM) and do our best to tend the vineyard until He returns or we go to Him.
You are absolutely right that we are pilgrims passing through. This unregenerated world is not our final home. We can’t cling too tightly to the things of the world.
We should, however, walk through this world with the integrity befitting a son or daughter of the most high. To many, this means keeping our promises, providing for our families, and trying to leave behind a world where our grandchildren can freely hear the gospel and worship.
You brought up a good point in the conversation, Kelli, but you also effectively dismissed those you disagree with by calling them “earth dwellers”, and alleging that they are not “pilgrims”.
I wonder what part of the Word say’s it’s okay to call your brothers and sisters names? I wonder if you realize that I felt a little hurt that my brothers and sisters would feel that way towards those of us who are just trying to do the right thing?
I don’t know you. I assume you are someone who knows and loves Jesus as I do.
Like PJ, I’ve spent a lot of time on different Christian boards and I’m the veteran of not a few board wars.
I get passionate about my beliefs, and i used to get pretty wrapped up in expressing my view as forcefully and effectively as I could. That’s just me.
One time, I was ready to hit the submit button on just an absolutely beautiful post, one that was well wriiten, pithy, and absolutely demolished my opponents arguments. I mean completely tore them to shreds.
As I went to hit the submit button, a pretty startling thought occurred to me. The person whose arguments I was shredding was a real person with real feelings. I stopped and considered how she would feel, then went back and re-wrote my reply in a much more considerate and loving tone, not so worried about winning the argument anymore.
This Jesus thing works if we remember to “Love one another” – even on the Internet.
Hi
Sorry you were offended by using the words earth dwellers and pilgrims. But we are to examine ourselves whether we are of “the faith” or not. We all can get side tracked but eventually we hear the Lord and get back on the narrow path. As I shared I was part of fighting this spiritual battle before but the Lord has already won the battle it is finished. We are overcomers. Yes, people of the world will know us as we are disciples of Our Lord Jesus and the love we have for one another.
Larry i posted something today which talks about acting out of conscience. Give it a look if you get the time. Its very interesting in that it was written during the civil upheaval and call to disobedience here in the US during the Vietnam era. (1969)
See : Romans 13 and Civil Disobedience
But isn’t that elevating the constitution into a place in our lives as Christians, which it has no place being? It sounds like you are saying its ok to go against what the new testament teachings [on government etc] says, if the US constitution is not strictly adhered to. I must not be understanding you L.
Hi Juanita,
“But isn’t that elevating the constitution into a place in our lives as Christians, which it has no place being?”
No, I don’t believe so. We live in a government which was set up in such a way that we the people are an integral part of the governing process. In our form of Government, the authority to govern resides with the people itself. We elect our leaders and are expected to be good citizens. Part of being a good citizen is to participate.
The constitution, itself, is considered to be the ultimate law of the land, and we are instructed by the bible to obey the laws we live under unless they go against God’s word.
Do you know that an officer in the military is required by law to obey their oath? This is law. we are instructed by God’s word to follow the law.
To suggest that an officer should disregard his oath is to suggest that he break the law. To encourage someone to break the law is also against the law.
Now, we get into a sticky area, don’t we?
This is what I’m saying, that it’s not so black and white as it may appear. There are legitimate areas of disagreement here.
Here’s what I’m seeing, though. I see some Christians of conscience, like yourself, objecting to the venemous language of the goofball extremists, and being so injured and vexed in their souls that they begin to lash out, injuring not only the extremists, but honest Christians as well. Because of the ludicrous behavior of some, an over-reaction occurs where the pretty wittle baby is tossed out with the nasty old baffwater.
Laz
Larry, i believe we are coming from opposite sides of the issue (AHA).
See, i don’t believe what the constitution says can cancel out our obligation to obey God’s word when it comes to militancy and/or insurrection.
The bible doesn’t say “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: (unless i believe they have ignored the United States constitution)”
This is why i posted the OP which put the light on those promoting insurrection today…especially those who claim Christ. Its sin to promote going against the word, and that’s what was happening at the TBA conference which many Christians attended..
Hi Kelly,
You said: “But we are to examine ourselves whether we are of “the faith” or not.”
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. Do you mean that because I differ with your opinion there’s a good chance that I’m not really a Christian?
I agree wholeheartedly with the scripture but not sure it’s being applied wisely.
Larry
Hi Juanita,
Forgive the multiple posts.
You wrote:
Larry i posted something today which talks about acting out of conscience. Give it a look if you get the time. Its very interesting in that it was written during the civil upheaval and call to disobedience here in the US during the Vietnam era. (1969)
I read that article, and it was very good. I don’t agree with all of it, but do agree with the essence.
Consience is alluded to by Peter, who elevates the value of having a clear conscience before God. Paul also talks about keeping our conscience clear and acting on conscience. I agree that the conscience simply adheres to a previously accepted moral standard, but with this difference – I believe that God gives all men a measure of light, that we’re all born with a certain amount of hard-coding in our conscience.
I believe part of the confusion about this whole thing is that many don’t realize that in the United States – we the people, collectively, ARE the Government. We have a government of the people BY THE PEOPLE and for the people.
Basically, the authority to govern rests with the people and we grant that authority, temporarily, to elected officials who are bound by the law of the land (the constitution). They are not in charge of the people, but the people (collectively) are in charge of the elected officials.
The document which dictates how this will all take place is the constitution.
Now, a constitution is only good if it’s adhered to.
The soviet union had a beautiful constitution which extolled human rights, but it was a joke because it was blatently disregarded.
Our constitution is becoming that way. It’s only good if it’s enforced. That’s why officers are required – by law – to disobey any order which is not constitutional:
“while enlisted personnel are bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice to obey lawful orders, officers in the service of the United States are bound by this oath to disobey any order that violates the Constitution of the United States.”
We’re a nation of laws, and our leaders are bound by law just as much as we are, and it’s actually our resposibility, as citizens, to hold them accountable for obeying those laws.
Conscience can be seen in the light of relativism Larry…
“That’s true for you but not for me.”
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
“You can’t judge other cultures by the standards of your own.”
Where as God’s word is not dependent upon how we apply it based on our conscience, but what it says. Its absolute.
Our conscience can deceive us. We can sin by only depending on ourselves (our reasoning or conscience)
Paul is a good example:
I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. Acts 22
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. Acts 26
Paul believed he was doing the right thing, because the law AND his conscience told him so.
But before his death he stated:
And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. Acts 23
How could he say this?…because he lived his new life, not by depending on his conscience to show him what was right, but because he lived those years after his experience on the Damascus road, in obedience to Christ and his teachings.
Having a clear conscience before God means we have lived and walked before him, in obedience. That we quickly repent (even after after being born again) for any sins or acts of rebellion against God–that we live as best we can, by his teachings found in the word. (May we all leave this world with that kind of conscience..amen)
Again L, i believe we are coming at this from two different directions.
Larry said, “I believe part of the confusion about this whole thing is that many don’t realize that in the United States – we the people, collectively, ARE the Government. We have a government of the people BY THE PEOPLE and for the people.”
I think some thing else that is sometimes forgotten in this whole discussion is what is stated in the First Amendment to our Constituition. It says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.’
It seems to me that when the law of the land distinctly says that we have the right to “petition for the redress of grievances”, we are not being unsubmissive to the government when we do so, are we? Of course, this is speaking of things done “peaceably”, not an insurection.
Hi sis,
Good stuff about conscience. I do agree with you on this. Of course we shouldn’t rely on concience apart from the Word of God. But having read His word, we apply it as best we can and strive to keep a clear conscience before God.
I also agree that we’re coming at this from 2 different angles.
See? Now we agree about those 2 things anyhow <-:
We've kind of been all over the map here. My original point is that I can see a scenario where a military coup could be moral, but don't believe we are there. I also see room for honest disagreements among Christians on this.
Even though we disagree on this, I will say this…
I'm taking this position grudgingly, out of a sense of wanting to do what is right because I want to please and obey my Lord.
There are others who have jumped on this out of a place of hatred, not because of honor or obligation. They've come to the right conclusion, maybe, but for the wrong reasons.
I believe you're absolutely right to be pointing this out, and I'm glad you are.
Luv ya,
Larry
Larry,
As I shared with you before I got involved with the political system of the world at the time there was something wrong with my involvement as it was not under the Lord persuasion to do it but of my flesh and others telling me it was the christian thing to do. The Lord finally showed me different after ” me” trying to make this a better place if we can in our flesh.
Examine yourselves whether you or of the faith. It is me you are having the problem with, or is it the Lord?
I love you too little brother. I can see you’re only wanting to do what is right. Don’t worry, God will show you. He’ll show all of us when its necessary.
I have often thought about Christian martyrs–those who went to their death for the cause of Christ, wondering how did they do that, especially when we read eye witness accounts of their peaceful demeanor…some even singing praises to Jesus as they were burned at the stake.
I believe its because the Holy Spirit gave them such a sense of inner peace and joy, that they could do nothing less. I’ve also come to believe God’s Spirit operates in a similar manner when we are faced with making certain types of decisions. If we are walking in the Spirit, He will show us what to do, and like the martyrs of old, we will go about doing it with God’s peace.