64 Comments

Update on Bentley and Lakeland from Peter Wagner..


Received this in my mail box so I’ll just hit the highlights…Take note, we now have Lakeland 1 and Lakeland 2…

An Update on Lakeland from Peter
August 25, 2008

I was in the San Francisco airport on my way to Singapore and Indonesia when the news of Todd Bentley’s separation from his wife became public on August 12.  When I arrived back home last week, I found that Doris had received and replied to around 1,700 emails and the stack of correspondence on my desk was unbelievable.  It took me the rest of the week to catch up!

During the week I was gone, a major watershed occurred regarding the Lakeland situation as most of you would know.  We are now on a new playing field.  Lakeland Outpouring I, in which Todd Bentley was the main figure, is now history.  Lakeland Outpouring II, in which Stephen Strader of Ignited Church is the main figure, has begun.

The Present

It will sound surprising to some, but Lakeland II in Ignited Church, which you will remember was the original host church, is going very well.  The big crowds and GOD TV, of course, are gone.  Ignited Church seats around 700 in the main sanctuary and Stephen Strader reports that on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday evenings they have to use their overflow room.  It is comfortably filled on week nights.  The morning training sessions continue with a couple hundred every day, and teams continue to move daily into the streets of Lakeland spreading the gospel.  Percentage-wise the dramatic miracles and healings occur nightly with probably a higher percentage of salvations on a daily basis.  Support from local pastors is improving considerably.  The most interesting report is that every night some 30 percent are first-time attenders, meaning that people are still coming to Lakeland from the outside to experience Outpouring II.

Speaking of the public figure going down the tubes, Todd Bentley now carries the label of a liar and a deceiver. I’m sorry to mention it, but I felt personally deceived in the same way when Ted Haggard’s sin was exposed and he was immediately removed from ministry.  In the Lakeland I case, I am elated at the way things are turning out.  The Revival Alliance with whom Todd was aligned on June 23 has kicked into action with a vengeance.  Ché Ahn and Bill Johnson, like me, were overseas when things broke, but John Arnott stepped up to the plate and moved in apostolically.  It has since become clear that Todd’s Fresh Fire Board could not have handled the situation, Stephen Strader and Ignited Church could not, nor could any of his other close friends.  Only the Revival Alliance could.  I am delighted that they are not buying into typical charismatic soft morality, also called “greasy grace” or “don’t touch God’s anointed” or “mercy must triumph over judgment,” phrases that have been used on other similar occasions as convenient religious cop-out excuses.  They’re proceeding in love, but it is tough love..

Since this is an update, I will share some of what I know about what is happening with Bentley, but not all because some things need more verification and it is up to discernment of Revival Alliance what and when this will be revealed.  Suffice it to say that there is more than I am going to mention.

First of all, Todd has been removed from public ministry until further notice.  He has resigned from the ministry he founded, Fresh Fire, so he is no longer a part of that board.  It has become clear that he indulged in periodic drunkenness.  He has no intention at the moment of reconciling with Shonna, nor does she with him.  Their marriage has been torn for years by his emotional attachment with at least one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands.  Enough said-maybe more details will be revealed later-but it was clearly immoral.  All of this was skillfully concealed by lying and by swearing close associates who had observed his behavior to secrecy. Stephen Strader, for example, knew nothing of this before June 23.  Apparently some of his board members did, but they did not have the ability to deal with it.

The Past

I hope this is the last time I will have to address the past.  It is now history.  But as history is written, I feel that I have some responsibility of helping to have history be written accurately, especially since I have turned out to be a lightening rod for a number of severe criticisms.

Most of you know this, but let me reiterate to keep it on record.  Previous to around the middle of June, my interest in Lakeland was about a 2 on a scale of 1-10. Then I got a call from Stephen Strader, the host pastor who was a member of ICA, which I lead, with a passionate appeal for apostolic intervention because chaos and confusion had begin to invade the Outpouring I.  Toward the end of the hour we were talking, I received one of my infrequent direct words from God:  “Alignment!”  Just one word, but I knew I had a divine command and responsibility.

Once I knew that God had assigned me to initiate some sort of apostolic intervention at Stephen’s side, I began praying and consulting with close colleagues.  In less than two days I discovered that Todd Bentley had no formal, established apostolic alignment.  I asked God how I should proceed, especially since I had no inclination to attempt an apostle-evangelist approach and expect that Bentley would submit to or even listen to what I had to say if I made an appointment with him in Lakeland.  I felt that proper apostolic protocol would be for me to deal with one or more peer-level apostles to whom Todd had aligned apostolically.  Since as yet he had no such alignment, I began asking God how such an alignment might come about.  He directed me to my close friend, Ché Ahn, who himself is apostolically aligned with me and who also had been close to Bentley for years.  Ché agreed that the best apostolic protocol would be for Todd to align with the Revival Alliance if he were willing.  Ché called him and Bentley agreed to submit publicly to the Revival Alliance.

At this point some disagreements arose. I have already mentioned that I was consulting with several apostolic colleagues whom I trusted and whom I know trusted me.  It is very necessary for us to understand exactly what the disagreement was about.  It was about the most appropriate apostolic protocol for the occasion.  After prayerfully listening to the different points of view with careful consideration of what was being said, the decision had to be mine.  I believe that God’s word to me about “Alignment!” had to be directional.  I concluded that the best protocol was to do the alignment first, then deal with the issues that had been raised.  My other friends disagreed and urged me to deal with Todd’s problems first then do the alignment.  I respected their point of view and I was very sorry that I had to follow God’s leading for me personally instead of taking their advice.  It was not a comfortable decision.

Now let me address what was behind much of their disagreement with my apostolic protocol.

They were concerned that if I appeared on the platform with GOD TV, many viewers would interpret it as my personal endorsement of everything that was going on in Lakeland I, and since they were so closely associated with me, they would be implicated as well.  This was a legitimate concern, and one I seriously wrestled with as I made my decision.  If I went to Lakeland and presided over the alignment, some might well take it as an endorsement.  It was a risk, I knew.  Let me say personally that all my life I have been a risk-taker instead of a play-it-safe person, and I have taken many hits for it.  As an example going to the jungles of Bolivia as a career field missionary when I was 25 with my wife and a one-year-old baby girl was a serious risk.  Both that daughter and another who was born in the jungle without medical attention came close to losing their lives during those five years.  And we were criticized for our decision to take the risk by many, including parents!

Closer to the Lakeland I situation, I have a private list of no fewer than 18 high-profile Christian leaders starting from the 1970s until Bentley for whom I took risks.  For each one of them I took serious criticisms and in some cases personal hits even much more serious than I have received in this current case because I endorsed or partnered with or provided alignment for them.  Some were typified as “crazy!”  However, I can pretty much discern winners, although not always.  My track record for the 18 is 72% emerged as real winners (you would know most of them), 17% ended up losers (including Bentley), and 11% indecisive. I’m sorry for the losers, but they prove I am not perfect.  The point I am making is that I am no stranger to taking risks and living with the fallout.

One fallout from Lakeland I is that several have resigned from ICA and other organizations that I lead because they no longer want to be identified with me.  Others are still upset.

I want it understood that I did not go to Lakeland on June 23 for Todd Bentley.  I had never met him personally.  I had no knowledge of and little interest in his ministry.  I went because I received an apostolic plea to help bring order to the confusion and chaos  that was sweeping through the body of Christ worldwide because of the television.  I went strictly for the body of Christ at the invitation of the host pastor of the Outpouring I.

The final question is:  Was it successful? Looking back, I praise God for using me and others to help bring order to confusion, which is one of the chief biblical tasks of an apostle.  Stephen Strader, who has been keeping records, affirms that the evil that the prince of the power of the air had been subtly introducing into the Outpouring I started to be exposed and unraveled the day after the alignment, June 24!

Spiritually, this is very understandable.  Just about every leader I knew had discerned that Lakeland I was a mixture of the godly and the ungodly.  We were praying in one accord that the evil would be separated from the good.  My take is that God had decided to answer these prayers and in order to facilitate His process, He assigned me and the Revival Alliance leaders and others who were with us to align Todd Bentley apostolically for the first time in his life.  When we did this publicly, spiritual transactions took place in the invisible world that would not allow the enemy to maintain the veil of secrecy he had carefully placed over the Outpouring.  The evil was exposed, Revival Alliance had the authority to deal with it, and the net result is that order is replacing chaos in the body of Christ.

In my section above on “The Present” I gave you some details.  Believe me, they are only the tip of the iceberg as I just learned from a new phone call even as I was writing this paper.  The proper apostolic structure, happily, is in place at the time of crisis!

The Future

It is now important to recognize that from now on we have a different playing field.  Two separate things are going on.  (1) The Revival Alliance is dealing with Todd Bentley and the fallout from his sin that has been and continues to be exposed.  (2) I have told you previously about a group of 11 apostles that I have formed into the Lakeland Outpouring Apostolic Team.  We no longer need to deal with Lakeland I and Bentley as such.  However, we have a list of 24 serious issues that have emerged from that unpleasant experience which need to be thoroughly discussed with the conclusions circulated in the body of Christ.  If you have seen Dutch Sheets’ recent “A Statement and Appeal Regarding Lakeland” you will get a glimpse of some of the things that we agree need to become standard operational beliefs and practices, particularly in our charismatically-inclined evangelical segment of the church.

It will take time, but our Apostolic Team will get to work on the 24 issues after some of this present dust settles, and we will be back to you!

*******

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted…

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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64 comments on “Update on Bentley and Lakeland from Peter Wagner..

  1. And yet Peter Wagner fails to address the prophecies he himself gave to Todd Bently:

    “This commissioning represents a powerful spiritual transaction taking place in the invisible world. With this in mind, I take the apostolic authority that God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley;

    · your power will increase,

    · your authority will increase,

    · your favor will increase,

    · your influence will increase,

    · your revelation will increase.

    “I also decree that a new supernatural strength will flow through this ministry. A new life force will penetrate this move of God. Government will be established to set things in their proper order. God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error. New relationships will surface to open the gates to the future.

    http://vodpod.com/watch/835371-todd-bentleys-apostolic-and-prophetic-commissioning-14

    He should make it clear how he could have uttered these false prophecies? Was he under divine inspiration at that time? Also being the leader of the other Apostles in that stage Peter Wagner owes an explain to the body of Christ about so-called prophecies given by others as well.

  2. Wowsers! So, “the evil that the prince of the power of the air had been subtly introducing into the Outpouring I started to be exposed and unraveled the day after the alignment, June 24!”

    Is this a dream?

  3. […] Read his full statement dated August 25, 2008 here. […]

  4. I lead
    I started
    I have formed
    God used ME
    MY apostolic protocol
    I decree

    I…ME…MY…oh, my…!

  5. How sweet! Fakeland just keeps on going, or so Mr Wagner would have you believe. Yesterday, Strader put out a statement shutting down the morning training sessions and cancelled all services on Mondays. You know, so the poor tired people going can get some rest, have a tourist day etc. As he said “Hallelujah”.

    I live in Lakeland and this has stunk since day one. We have and will continue to sound the alarm to our brothers and sisters who just blindly accept anything and everything as “of God” without putting it up against His Word.

    I must say that of all the backpeddling letters that have come out since Bentley’s SINS were exposed, this one from Wagner was the most stomach turning one.

    When you describe Bentley as a liar and deciever, may I suggest to you that you look into the mirror! For you and all your ICA’s, Revival Alliance people are quilty of the same thing. You have lied to the Body and decieved them in many areas. Also, you say that today the Lakeland 2 is one a new playing field. May I say, this is not a GAME and you are still on the same SHIFTING SAND. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!!!

  6. “My other friends disagreed and urged me to deal with Todd’s problems first then do the alignment. I respected their point of view and I was very sorry that I had to follow God’s leading for me personally instead of taking their advice. It was not a comfortable decision.”–So it’s God’s fault? Give me a break!

  7. I just love the way his power, authority, favor, influence etc. increased! The big name propehts/apostles are just as great at getting things to come to pass as the local ones that made grand pronouncements locally and personally in the past that have never had one ounce of fulfillment. Trouble is, I don’t suppose this will bother many people in the least (unless God does a huge miracle) and they will go right on hanging on every word these folks say.

  8. Since Todd has been labeled a liar and a deceiver, a drunk and an adulterer, (of whom the Word says will not have a part in the Kingdom of Heaven), and worse, how can those of you that are not convinced still think God was working mightily through him at Lakeland. Just doesn’t add up does it?

  9. Once again the nerve of this bragging little autocrat stuns me. I much preferred “the devil made me do it ” excuses of others to the “God made me do it” excuses of Mr. Wagner. He is actually blaming God for his own short comings and failed gamble.
    It is also clear that he knows quite a bit more about the “sins of Bentley”, but I don’t think we will be much shocked. Appalled maybe, but not shocked. But why bring it up at all if it is only “hearsay” at this point? He now calls Todd a “liar and a deceiver”. You mean he didn’t realize that when Todd was flying up to heaven and being eviscerated ? Or when Todd got electrocuted? Or when the angel of finance showed up? Or when … Y’all get the picture.
    So now he is going to have to do what I have been most afraid of – tweak the doctrine for appearances sake. This I’m sure will allow for one of his “winners”, crazy as a bessie bug or not, to lead even more astray. I weep for the casualties of Lakeland I or II as well as those to come.
    Maybe Mr. Wagner considers himself a “winner” too. He needs to understand that success without soundness is not winning. And winning, at any cost, is actually losing. This is supposed to be church, not a racetrack.
    PS What is the Prince of the Power of the Air, anyway?

  10. This is “spinning” pure and simple. The self importance and arrogance in this letter is revolting. I am sickened by it!

  11. Quote ” I am delighted that they are not buying into typical charismatic soft morality, also called “greasy grace” or “don’t touch God’s anointed” or “mercy must triumph over judgment,” phrases that have been used on other similar occasions as convenient religious cop-out excuses. They’re proceeding in love, but it is tough love..”

    I am delighted he is using these same phrases that have been thrown like Satan’s fiery darts at those of us who have spoken out against this. Although greasy grace is a new one on me! How clever to take his apostolic authority over these phrases ! This just shows me they read their own negative press and the blogs. We need to keep the heat up as high as possible on this arrogant crew.

    I hate to be so smarmy, but like we used to say in the 80’s Gag me with a spoon!

  12. When Rome first aligned itself to establish the universal church, and declare Peter the Apostolic foundation of it, what and how did they think, do you suppose?

    You are witnessing it, even here. It was stated by so many here, that they believed Bentley would be dropped like a bad habit. Now you see their loyalties. They are only loyal to their own , corrupt, power base, which is also their bread and butter.

    Again, and again, do you hear any reference to the Satanic doctrines and manifestations that these animals have endorsed?….and have ministered for years? Do you hear any compassion for allowing these doctrines of Satan, with their accompaning angels and angels, to destroy the faith of multitudes?

    Of course not. Bentley is under the bus. He was useless anyway….but not to worry, we, the Apostles have everything under control. We are aligning ourselves, to save you from your weak kneed leaders. We will be in an area near you soon, We are the Apostles of the PEOPLE!

    Frogs want to be Princes too, Peter. Avoid these desparate jokers. There is no greater disrespect to them , than to declare the truth. These apostates are IRRELEVANT!

    Avoid them, and one thing about a RAT RACE…. is this..even if you win, you are still a Rat!… Good luck, Peter. Please keep your racing away from here. You are full of ambition to control the body of Christ, with your prideful friends, and you lose.

    Tom Watkins

  13. > …one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands.

    Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more!

    I had a feeling that “unhealthy relationships” were less innocent than they sound.

  14. PJ, have you seen this recent statement from Rick Joyner regarding Bentley & Lakeland?

    Scott
    Northwest Musings

    http://www.morningstarministries.org/Articles/1000036553/MorningStar_Ministries/Media/Special_Bulletins/2008/_13_The.aspx

  15. So many absurd quotes to pick from in that letter….ummmm

    I’ll start with this one:

    Looking back, I praise God for using me and others to help bring order to confusion, which is one of the chief biblical tasks of an apostle.

    This poor fellow is delusional, If he thinks for one second he played any part to ‘bringing order’ to this mess.

    All he did by his leading the knighting ceremony and promoting the heresy ALREADY taking place at the time, was bring more confusion to an event which was already the biggest mess i’ve seen in christendom in all my years as a member of the body of Christ.

    Rose you hit the nail on the head:

    I lead
    I started
    I have formed
    God used ME
    MY apostolic protocol
    I decree

    I…ME…MY…oh, my…!

    Someone else is quoted in the bible as talking like that–i believe it was SATAN!

    Lisa,

    Once again the nerve of this bragging little autocrat stuns me.

    i couldn’t agree with you more–he and that entire bunch of self appointed apostles act like little ruling monarchs.

  16. All those who laid hands on this man share in his reproach. All that has been shown through all of this is just how spiritually blinded the charismatic community is. Where is the spiritual gift of discernment? Where is the observance of the Apostle Paul’s warning not to be hasty in the laying on of hands? Where is the observance of the warning from the Apostle John to test the spirits to see if they are of God? All who participated in this have shown they are false Apostles.

  17. “went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands. Enough said-maybe more details will be revealed later-but it was clearly immoral.”

    Sure sounds like Pete is itching to let the black cat out of the bag! I guess Joyner must of gotten to him. 🙂

    The other quote that made laugh was this one:

    “Stephen Strader, who has been keeping records, affirms that the evil that the prince of the power of the air had been subtly introducing into the Outpouring I started to be exposed and unraveled the day after the alignment, June 24!”

  18. Joyner’s article is even more annoying than Wagner’s IMO. If that is possible.

  19. Hey thanks Scott–no i hadn’t read the latest Joyner ‘jabber’..

    I only took a moment to read the beginning of it now, but want to read it closely later tonight. In the meantime here is beginning of his message:

    Over the last couple of weeks, there has been an increasing swirl of controversy regarding Todd Bentley. I have had almost daily contact with him, and he asked me to post the following:

    Todd Bentley asked me to convey his appreciation for all the prayers, expressions of love, and concern while he tries to navigate through this present situation. He is grieved by the trouble and confusion this has caused, especially to his friends, coworkers, and all who have trusted him. He wants to make a clear statement about it, acknowledging his responsibility in this and the mistakes he made, but he feels that he should first meet with Pastor Bill Johnson, who is out of the country and will not be available for a couple more weeks. He asks that you would continue to pray for him, and he thanks those who are willing to be patient. He wants to do this right and not hastily or superficially.

    Do you know what continues to upset me about Todd personally?

    Just what Joyner posted above–other people ‘relaying’ his messages or speaking for him.

    Todd has NOT to this day, come out HIMSELF publicly to make any type of statement or to apologize. (not to me, i wasn’t at lakeland so he owes me nothing, but to those who were there)

    Instead, like a child who has been caught being ‘naughty’ he hides under the bed while his ‘spiritual parents’ try to ‘fix’ things, not only for him but to save their own butts, so he can at some future point in time make a public statement, which no doubt they’ll put together for him.

    And why?

    So that down the road they can come out and present him as “restored!” (by themselves of course) and stick the guy back behind pulpits…

  20. […] I’ll post the highlights, however you can view the original letter in its entireity over a PJ’s site, Sola Dei Gloria. We are now on a new playing field.  Lakeland Outpouring I, in which Todd Bentley was the main […]

  21. […] It appears as though the core foundational belief structure and world view of men like Joyner, Johnson, Ahn, Wagner, et al, is so entrenched, I don’t know that anything in the short term can be done to rectify the situation. They have all clearly demonstrated that they are more interested in saving face and covering their own hind ends, which is sad. That’s exactly how I have taken every single statement from these men since Bentley announced through his Board that he’s stepping down. Here’s continued proof of that reality. […]

  22. What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive…

    All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

    First, I must say that at the end of 2007, I had to make a confession of immoral behavior in my own life. I found true repentance, and the story is too long to go into here, but I found true repentance. How do I know that I won’t fall into the same thing again? Because now it’s hideous to me, and God has caused me to hate what I used to love. Was it just a “one time thing”? No, it was not. It was a bad thing inside of me for many years. There were many times I confessed to the Lord, but never got really set free.

    But when I openly confessed it to a couple of ministers, and got prayer and then baptized in water, and then the very following Sunday the Lord had me in a city so I could be further “washed by the water of the Word” as I sat under the preaching of a man who preached for a good solid 2 hours against the sin I had commited, my life was radically changed, and I know that NEVER again will I fall into this thing. I’m different because I have had a cleansing. This resulted in the restoration of a marriage that was broken. My husband and I had a 4 year separation, and now we are back together living in the same home, and getting along beautifully.

    But, at the same time, there was a price to pay for confessing and repenting because I had started a new life, and it was a good one. I had a great job, and great fellowship, and freedom to come and go as I pleased. Doors were opened to me to minister. When I repented as I did, it also marked the beginning of my taking up my cross as I had never done before.

    I have no regrets that I have left just about everything that appeared as ministry success and my prophecies coming to pass to get back on track in a walk of holiness.

    Here is another interesting fact: When I was not truly living the life, and caught up in my sin, I could still be very anointed. That is because the gifts and callings are without repentance. I found ways to deceive myself into believing that it was ok.
    And in ministry situations, I was totally sincere about what I was doing, but in my heart I knew I was not a clean vessel, and I would beg the Lord to cover me, and He would. The pull of this sin on my life was so strong, I would be in agony battling against it, but I would succumb.

    Now that I am delivered and cleansed, there is no more ministry. I had a ministry when I was dirty, but now that I am clean there is no ministry any more.

    If I would not have come forth in confession and repentance, I would still be doing as I was doing. There was no one who was exposing me. So, I could still be getting up and speaking in churches, and praying for the sick, and prophesying over people.
    But, God dealt with me through His Word, and I had to repent and I had to bring “fruits of repentance”.

    I have no ministry, but I can tell the truth. If no church or organization or fellowship will “cover me” because of my sin, that is ok because I can still speak out as an American citizen with the liberties afforded to me by the constitution, and that is probably what I’m doing here as I have no ‘official covering’ to boast in, except for Jesus when He covers me.

    It feels good to NOT have a ministry, but to be able to tell the truth. It feels good to be out from under the cloud of deception. I can’t even begin to tell you how good it feels to be a clean vessel of the Lord. So, losing any ministry opportunities is just fine because I would rather have things right with God than right with everyone else and know God knows what I am really all about, and for Him to have to say to me, “You may be fooling them, but you’re not fooling me.”

    There is one other thing I can do besides tell the truth.
    I can pray in secret. I can pray for this mess that has been caused by people who don’t have their foundations rightly laid, who exalted a novice who was no where near equipped for the work of the ministry.

    I can pray for Todd Bentley to repent and be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins so that he will receive the TRUE Holy Ghost and not all this stuff he has been partaking of and that he can find some TRUE servants of the Lord who are not into appointing themselves as lords over the flock of God, but who would truly watch over his soul.

    It takes some real discernment to know if a person his simply deceived, or a deceiver himself. If he was simply deceived then there is more hope for him. But if was a deliberate deceiver, I feel very sorry for him because the end will not be good.

    Bottom line in all of this is that people need to quit trying to explain their way out of this mess. It doesn’t need to be so complicated. If you’re guilty, then quit contorting things and just repent!!! The tortured explanations of who was doing what and why and how, etc are totally transparent. People are seeing through it. And I don’t have any “word” about this, but I’m afraid that what has been exposed in Todd Bentley is rampant in the body of Christ because there is no consistent message going forth of how God’s people need to repent of the works of the flesh. Galatians 5.
    No one wants to hurt anyone’s feelings.

    Well, saints of God, I had the Lord hurt my feelings BIG TIME, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

    So, I’m praying for Todd Bentley to come to terms within his own heart and have a real meeting with the Lord that leads him to openly repent to those whom he has wounded by his behavior.

    And I pray that when and if he truly does repent that God’s people will restore him. Maybe not to superstar ministry status, but at least as a brother in the Lord who can be a member of the body of Christ, loving his wife and family, and yielded as a servant of the Lord.

    Amen and amen.

    Clo

  23. Powerful comment Clo….thank you so much for sharing it all–I pray it helps someone.

    You said something which truly struck me, and i believe it…:

    It takes some real discernment to know if a person his simply deceived, or a deceiver himself. If he was simply deceived then there is more hope for him. But if was a deliberate deceiver, I feel very sorry for him because the end will not be good.

    There is a huge difference in being one who is deceived and being the one deceiving–I don’t think we always take that into consideration or can clearly know the difference when it comes to people like a Todd Bentley, unless the Spirit of God shows us.

  24. Thanks Clo and may the Lord bless you.
    Your sister in Christ
    Mel

  25. The thing that still strikes me is that at the “commissioning service” there was all of those “prophets and prophetic people” and NOT ONE heard a true word from the Lord. I mean, if you believe in NT prophecy (as people like Wayne Grudem have defined it) then that “alignment” service would have been the perfect time for a true prophetic word to expose the immorality and seducing spirits in Todd’s ministry.

    I remember Mark Driscoll telling a story of a large conference he was asked to speak at years ago and the Lord gave him a prophetic word that one of the main leaders was involved in serious sexual immorality. He gave a public rebuke from the platform. Needless to say it was awkward and they never asked him to come back, but later that leader’s sin was indeed exposed. To me that is the true prophetic.

    It is sad to me that with all of those “prophetic” people, not one was hearing from the the Lord. It just shows how much hype is out there. Some of those people I use to respect when I was a young man. God, help the charismatic movement!

  26. What a bunch of lies! Do they really expect discerning Christians to believe this??

    Need to call it Fakeland I and Fakeland II.

    I can see it now – it will be like those horror movies that Hollywood did in the ’80s with all their different Parts, but I believe God will end these series soon!

  27. […] Here's what Peter Wagner now says about Bentley;  […]

  28. pj,
    I agree with your thoughts that it would be nice to see Todd take personal responsibility. However, there is something about the tone of Peter’s statements concerning Todd and Rick Joyner’s statements about Todd that make me believe that he is probably ducking for cover to avoid the latest apostolic missile headed his way. It seems apparent that some are wanting to make Todd the scapegoat not only for his personal failures, but also for the fact that their apostolic aspirations and failures are being exposed. Believe me, this scandal is much bigger than Todd’s sexual indiscretions, but there are many who would like to keep the attention on that aspect of things.

  29. Pat left this under another thread

    ….i couldn’t help from laughing at this guy’s bluntness in his comments about Johnson, Peter Wagner and GodTV’s Wendy Alec.

    Bill Johnson and those so called prophets

  30. Brandt Arrested At The Lakeland Revival

    Hey everyone!

    At 2 o’clock this afternoon, Brandt Russo was arrested at the request of the pastor of Ignited Church. He is being charged with trespassing on private property (church parking lot and swamp).

    The pastor has refused to meet with Brandt regarding the blatantly ignored homeless population just outside the door of the church building. He said he was “too busy to meet with Brandt”. Jesus had all kinds of time to hang out with the poor, homeless, and oppressed.

    Because Brandt has been jailed by this pastor, he will not be at the Community Party tonight, BUT IT IS STILL HAPPENING!

    Our friends Max and James will be holding the party in the Wal-Mart parking lot, directly across the street from Ignited Church.

    Same deal.

    Come out for food, coffee, bubbles and love. Call all your friends. Call your grandma and have her come out! It’s going to be an awesome time. Make sure to bring clothes, food, or whatever you can to help these brothers and sisters in need.

    Thanks!

    Brandon Mouser
    brandon@thebridgewv.com
    http://www.myspace.com/brandtishollywood

  31. PJ, It’s always interesting to go back and watch things as they were happening in the beginning. Go back down memory lane with me and watch this video of Bentley at the Cracker Barrel in Lakeland. He was star struck, with himself.

    I have a suggestion for you, start a thread that incorporates specific Youtubes outlining and detailing the deception as it was occurring. Deception that was so clear to most of us, however, evidently not to the ‘Prophets & Apostles’ of this movement.

    People tend to forget the serious nature of a matter after it dies down, which is exactly what Rick Joyner is trying to get people to do.

    Watch this again

  32. Victor posted the truth, at the very start of this thread. Can you imagine our Lord Jesus, turning to such humiliating lies, after stating the truth so clearly? This is a sickening atrocity, and how naive and stupid does he believe the Body of Christ is?

    Read the prophecy from Wagner’s lips. It was very, very, clear. Now , it was all wrong, when Bentley is exposed?

    This is from God, folks. Please spread the Word, that each of these fatherless children seek to control you, and are self imposed false Apostles…Thank you Victor, for posting a simple, but devastating truth.

    Thank you PJ, for such a relevant addition of scriptures from the Word about what a Nicolaitain is, and what the Lord feels about them. So it is with Sheets, Joyner, and this usurper, Wagner. Spread the word, as Victor has done. Liars with a forked tongue.

  33. > …one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands.

    It almost sounds like he’s saying that if it were ONLY hugging, kissing, and hand holding it would be okay….

  34. Hi Kevin…

    I’m not familiar with Brandt Russo, but did check out your myspace page.

    The pastor has refused to meet with Brandt regarding the blatantly ignored homeless population just outside the door of the church building. He said he was “too busy to meet with Brandt”. Jesus had all kinds of time to hang out with the poor, homeless, and oppressed.

    Thats sad if Strader or anyone else from Ignited church, is not concerned about the homeless just outside their doors.

    I dare say “if” Jesus were to be at Ignited Church, he would not be inside the building, but outside with those who need him.

    Is there a news story from lakeland, on line somewhere, about his arrest?

  35. Go back down memory lane with me and watch this video of Bentley at the Cracker Barrel in Lakeland. He was star struck, with himself.

    What an interesting telling clip Scott!

    you know, somehow i missed seeing that one–so this was my first view.

    I was struck by the pride Todd gave off–like a child who has been given a first place blue ribbon. This man was in no way mature enough or equipped to lead anything.

  36. It seems apparent that some are wanting to make Todd the scapegoat not only for his personal failures, but also for the fact that their apostolic aspirations and failures are being exposed.

    Grace you may be right–one thing this entire mess has done has shone a high-powered spotlight on this whole man-made apostle posse…one that prior to Lakeland, only a small segment of the church was aware of.

    I say, HOORAY! It needed to be seen for what it really is–a bunch of posers.

    Victor posted the truth, at the very start of this thread.

    yes he did Tom….(thank you Victor)

    Peter Wagners own words prove him to be lying..

    It almost sounds like he’s saying that if it were ONLY hugging, kissing, and hand holding it would be okay….

    Rhea, i’ve gotten that same impression in some of the other letters sent out by this bunch of posers…

    Also almost everyone of them have now said they knew of his unfaithfulness a couple years ago–AND that they knew his marriage was STILL in trouble. Knowing those two things, wouldn’t logic dictate there “might” be further instances of infidelity—especially in light of KNOWING Todd’s wife had only been in lakeland a matter of days during all the months this thing went on, and the rest of the time was back home in Canada?

    Im no genius, but for goodness sakes, it doesn’t take one to see the groundwork was there for further immorality.

    Then you have this [from Wagners letter]

    All of this was skillfully concealed by lying and by swearing close associates, who had observed his behavior, to secrecy.

    And who were these associates?

    Most of those i saw around him on the platform, when watching him on GodTV, were young people–I would like to know who those associates were who lied and covered up for him: were they the worship leaders or those who helped him when people were brought up to be prayed for….?

  37. Thanks PJ & Thanks Tom.

    Did you notice none of these “Apostles” including Peter Wagner have not thought about the reputation of Jesus! In this whole mess the reputation of Jesus is at stake in the midst of secular journalists and unbelivers. New Christians are perplexed. But these pseudo Apostles are concerned about the reputation of themselves. God let the meetings go and gathered all false prophets and pseudo Apostles during the great commissioning ceremony and busted all of them. These pseudo Apostles forget that this is a clear message to them from God (chastising them). I have been going to churches connected to this movement since 2002. I have met Steve Schultz and had a brief converstation with him. Dutch Sheets once smiled at me as he was walking out and said Hi. I have also spoken with David Bentley (Todd’s father) once and he gave me a prophetic word which did not come to pass. I have seen Doris Wagner ministering in Rhode Island but I have never seen Peter Wagner in person. I strongly believe that Bob Jones in a bad influence on many of these leaders.

    I noticed the following things in this movement:

    * They try to present an alternate to legalistic and abusive churches but go to the other extreme – Lawlessness.

    * Many of them do not read their Bibles at all. They give little or no importance to the Word of God.

    * They claim to do deliverance but do not actually work on casting out demons (they substitute with psycological counselling instead!)

    * Too much allegorization of the scriptures ignoring the actual meaning of the texts

    * Too much emphasis on dreams, visions, gold dust, feathers, angels etc. But they do not see any significant change in themselves nor in their followers.

    * Their desire to sell their products everywhere describing them as “cows” and the money as “milk”. When Che Ahn spoke in our Church he encouraged others to buy his book for his daughter’s expenses. He also said that he and his wife went for counselling by paying a counseller $75/hour. I was in that meeting when he told these things!

    * When they prophesy the use certain buzz words repeatedly: a new season is going to begin, something is going to shift, alignement is going to happen, a lot of angelic activity, lot of Jews are going to come to Christ, revival is going to sweep in the middle east and millions of muslims are going to turn to Christ, a new beginning, everything is going to shake (please read Elijah list and verify!)

    My wife and I went to Lakeland and Ignite Church. The presence of God was there and people were hungry. So I am writing these as an insider. Now we are very disappointed by this movement and my wife and I are looking for another Church.

    In this whole Todd Bentley/Lakeland mess lack of discernment is evident but I perosonally believe that it goes beyond that. God deliberatley hid these things from these fake Apostles and prophets, waited until the great commissioning ceremony and busted all of them. The false prophecies are all over the internet and they cannot deny them.

    BEFORE DEALING WITH TODD THEY NEED TO REMOVE BOB JONES AS AN INFLUENCE IN THEIR LIVES!

    Victor.

  38. Although I agree with the criticisms voiced by so many against the Lakeland Outpouring, it saddens me to see so many Christians who recognize the need for discernment yet fail to recognize the need to “speak the truth in love.” “Name calling” is another form of judging. Yes, we are to judge the actions, but we are not to judge the person by attaching unkind labels–no matter how accurate they might be.

    It also saddens me to see the time and energy spent on accusations, justifications and gossip that could be better spent in worshipping the Lord or serving others. Let’s get back to the real task Jesus assigned us–“Love God and love our neighbor.”

  39. Somebody please call the bull£%$% Police, theres enough evidence in that statement alone, let alone everything else he has said, to put Wagner away for 3 life sentences!

  40. Did you notice none of these “Apostles” including Peter Wagner have not thought about the reputation of Jesus

    Victor,

    That was the first thing i noticed when these letters started being sent out..and its been that, which has made me doubt the sincerity behind any of them.

    …these pseudo Apostles are concerned about the reputation of themselves.

    Exactly!

    These pseudo Apostles forget that this is a clear message to them from God (chastising them)

    Its amazing isn’t it, that they cannot see that! But then again i guess it shouldn’t surprise those of us looking in-for its always been about them and their authority–their leadership–and their agenda.

    Their desire to sell their products everywhere describing them as “cows” and the money as “milk”. When Che Ahn spoke in our Church he encouraged others to buy his book for his daughter’s expenses. He also said that he and his wife went for counselling by paying a counseller $75/hour. I was in that meeting when he told these things!

    And you know what, you were probably one of a very few that caught that and was amazed at the audacity…in fact you may have been the ONLY one!

    That reminded me of the sermon by David Wilkerson, The Reproach of the Solemn Assembly, in which he talks about a famous TV preacher asking for money and turning around talking about his ‘little $5,000.00 dog”

    When they prophesy the use certain buzz words repeatedly: a new season is going to begin, something is going to shift, alignement is going to happen, a lot of angelic activity, lot of Jews are going to come to Christ, revival is going to sweep in the middle east and millions of muslims are going to turn to Christ, a new beginning, everything is going to shake (please read Elijah list and verify!)

    Yes, its always about something ‘new’ to come or happen! If you notice there is never one word of ‘prophecy’ which encourages the people of God to prepare–repent–to get ready for the coming of the Lord, nor is there ever anything ‘prophesied’ concerning judgment.

    In this whole Todd Bentley/Lakeland mess lack of discernment is evident but I perosonally believe that it goes beyond that. God deliberatley hid these things from these fake Apostles and prophets, waited until the great commissioning ceremony and busted all of them. The false prophecies are all over the internet and they cannot deny them.

    Amen…they are sure trying to deny alot now, but the evidence as you pointed out, is ‘out there’ in ‘full color video clips’ at youtube and elsewhere–as well as their words in black and white on many websites!

    I think we’ve witnessed a historic moment in the Church Victor. Those who have called themselves ‘leaders’ saw nothing–but those of us without title or big position, had the truth revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. How cool is THAT! 🙂

    My wife and I went to Lakeland and Ignite Church. The presence of God was there and people were hungry. So I am writing these as an insider. Now we are very disappointed by this movement and my wife and I are looking for another Church.

    It was the people, the looks on their faces, which grieved me so much when i watched the services at GodTV…you could see the hunger, need, and many times emotional pain on their faces. I found myself on many of those nights when watching, spending more time praying here at the computer for the people, then i did listening to what was being said by those on the platform.

    I pray you and your wife are led by God to another Church. I have family who live in central Florida, and when visiting, i have met many Christians in the area who attend small ‘little known of’ congregations where the bible is preached and the real power of God is present.

    Those churches are out there Victor…

  41. “Those who have called themselves ‘leaders’ saw nothing–but those of us without title or big position, had the truth revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. How cool is THAT! ”

    I don’t remember if it was Wagner or Sheets that mentioned in their last letter that “someone with more discernment” than they had might have seen more! That line was a really telling one to me–here they are the ones claiming to be the prophets and the apostles that all of the world is to follow, and other folks may have more discernment than they do!! How ironic is that?

  42. My last comment should have read “Wagner or Joyner” insteat of “Wagner or Sheets”.

  43. I was just reading in II Cor. 11 where Paul is talking about false apostles and deceitful workers and the people’s response to them. Verse 20 says, ” For you bear with anyone if he enslaves you, if he devours you, if he takes advantage of you, if he exalts himself, if he hits you in the face.”

    If that isn’t a picture of the way things are in much of the church today! I especially like the part about exatling themselves and hitting you in the face! I have a hunch that may not have been meant literally when Paul wrote it, but it has certainly been literal lately!

  44. >>”you could see the hunger need and many times emotional pain on their faces…<<
    I saw that too, but at times, I also saw confusion and sensed discomfort. Especially the night Todd read Wendy Alec’s “Jesus is coming in person” prophecy; and also later in the revival when Todd mentioned being contacted about doing a reality TV show. The audience, both times, became strangely quiet. I think that even though a majority of his audience seemed to be biblically illiterate, when things got really far out, they knew on some level that it was wrong. Does that make sense?
    To me, if they could sense it, the so-called apostles should have also. Their statements are drawing heavy criticism because they are not addressing the real problems – those within themselves. Mr. Wagner, like Bentley, is so arrogant, constantly claiming, ” I brought water from the rock”. (I think the prince of the power of the air between his ears may be causing him to act this way.) Mr Joyner, on the other hand, seems to want a “do over” for everybody. Statements, including his, have been met with outrage. And these folks like their statements to be met with oohs and aahs and nodding heads. Mr Joyner, in a previous statement claimed that the devil causes the false prophet to “deceive, intimidate, and control others”. After reading all their statements, It seems to me that that is exactly what THEY are trying to do.

  45. Lisa,

    It is totally outrageous that TB was offered a reality TV program & he actually gave this account to all! WOW! I did not know about this. This is truly the “selling of the Gospel”. A few years back, this whole thing would have been stopped before it ever reached TV!

    katie

  46. Note**

    I commented this way on another blog:

    I watched the youtube “ordination” where there were supposed “seasoned” men of God embracing Todd and ordaining him as this “young” Apostle.

    In Ephesians, without a doubt, as you must embrace and agree, here the “very well seasoned and oiled” Apostle lays out a gridiron so to speak for building the Church.

    Some of the points I want to touch on to make my point. First, Eph. 1:3!!! Yes, it is all about Him according to Christ! Second, Eph. 2:10. Can we as “monday morning judges of Sunday understand some of what is now occurring? Yes, yes we can as we shall see. Third, Eph. 3:8-12. It seems to me there was a lack of discerning or hearing the Holy Ghost “discern” this outcome and so quickly after the outpouring began. That causes me to pause and ask, what got swept up and overlooked seeing it is clear the function of the mature Body of Christ in manifesting the manifold wisdom of God to the rulers and authorities in heavenly places? Fourth, Eph. 4:11…., just to touch on what now is apparent and apparently missed or not embraced during the outpouring, that is, Apostles “equip” the Saints, establishing them in the “Truth” so that the body builds itself up to stand against the wiles of the devils. How did C Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, John Arnot and others miss or seemingly not discern Todd’s personal situations? These are the “seasoned” Apostles who embraced and ordained the young man into this equipping work as an Apostle of God for such a time as this outpouring. We can see now that it has come out some of what Paul was getting at, the heart of the matter when we read these things, “not to be tossed to and fro”, carried about by winds of doctrines, i.e. angels, speaking the “truth” in love, “be joined together spiritually”, as one body, “each part working properly” with one another, “not walking in futility of mind”, not being darkened in mind, not being alienated and so on. It’s all right there. And somehow with regard to this young ministry of Todd and his wife, you would think the well seasoned men of God, those Apostles and Prophets who are supposed to have known them well would have had more discernment?

    So, what am I saying? My mentoring Apostle taught about Ministry for the Lord, that if you cannot do simple things like clean chicken shacks after they make messes and enjoy serving chickens, you will not make it in ministry with people continually under the condemnations of the devils as they are graciously and lovingly equipped to come out of darkness and enter into light and be converted from being children of darkness to children of Light to grow in Grace and the Knowledge of the Truth to stand in the Power and Might of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

    It is sad, but what would you expect of immature Christians not fully vetted by Seasoned Ministers of Grace and Mercy and Peace? Don’t you suppose those guys who ordained Todd are well seasoned, oiled Ministers of the Gospel? And as I noted about Paul there in Acts 17, he was not able to stop the agitation and stirrings against the Gospel outpourings of his day!

    Let the antics of the immature be noted as you have done so well herein. Let’s forget what is behind and now press on to maturity in Christ seeking the Wisdom of the Holy Ghost and His Favor so that what Paul indicated will come front and center, full circle mindful still of that human quality, immaturity:::>

    Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

    and most certainly this too:::>

    Act 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
    Act 26:17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles–to whom I am sending you
    Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

    Let’s continue helping our people turn from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God that they too might receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by Christ and the Holy Ghost for the Glory of God.

    One last verse then:

    Psa 50:15 and call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”

    According to Prophesy, troubled times are ahead! Let us resolve for ourselves and our people to “call upon the Lord” in the day of trouble then seeing He promises He will deliver us and we will indeed glorify Him!

  47. Lisa,
    A reality show?I would love to see that clip. I remember seeing sort of a mass confusion look with people in the audience too sometimes when Todd would talk. The deer in the headlights look but that could have just been distraction at the Glory cloud passing by….geesh!

    Does anyone remember seeing a clip early on in Lakeland where Todd says “The Lord revealed himself to me because like King David, I have a pure heart” The Lord said “Todd, you have a pure heart”.I would love to see that one now that this is all come out in the wash, so to speak.

    I would love to watch that one if anyone remembers it. He was talking about soaking after the revival in his hotel room (not in Mr. Bubble either) and the Lord manifested himself in his room in this big rainbow Glory cloud.

  48. ” For you bear with anyone if he enslaves you, if he devours you, if he takes advantage of you, if he exalts himself, if he hits you in the face.”

    I’m thinking since everything else in this sentence is literal…”hits you in the face”…I see no reason why this isn’t also. Huh.


  49. I remember Mark Driscoll telling a story of a large conference he was asked to speak at years ago and the Lord gave him a prophetic word that one of the main leaders was involved in serious sexual immorality. He gave a public rebuke from the platform. Needless to say it was awkward and they never asked him to come back, but later that leader’s sin was indeed exposed. To me that is the true prophetic.

    It is sad to me that with all of those “prophetic” people, not one was hearing from the the Lord. It just shows how much hype is out there

    I agree. They are not at all hearing from God. How can they call themselves prophets and apostles?


    In this whole Todd Bentley/Lakeland mess lack of discernment is evident but I perosonally believe that it goes beyond that. God deliberatley hid these things from these fake Apostles and prophets, waited until the great commissioning ceremony and busted all of them. The false prophecies are all over the internet and they cannot deny them.

    That is right !!

  50. We all do still need to judge, everything we read and hear, no matter who the speaker, writer now still is as well.. and compare it to the Bible still too.

    Now we are all entitled to our right of free speech..

    It is true that instead of being “relevant,” most of our Christian churches and Preachers have mostly become a mirror of the wordly culture’s infatuation with power, prestige, position, possessions, and prominence, instead of being “servants of God ” embodying a different way! A church now also with all of the overboard revival police and the toothless, pretentious watch dogs trying to get their own glory, attention, 5 minutes of fame.

    Most preachers who sell the gospel for money tend to be still false themselves too.

    It is also true that one can test the real spirituality of a preacher as to how he treats the salvation of the Jews and also the poor people now too!

    http://witnessed.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/and-more-false-cover-ups/

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