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Gregory Boyd on “The Myth of a Christian Nation”


to Polycarp at The Church of Jesus Christ. (check out Polycarp’s post on this topic for a few interesting excerpts from the book)

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64 comments on “Gregory Boyd on “The Myth of a Christian Nation”

  1. I remember when I saw this book on the shelf at a Christian bookstore I snatched it up and devoured it. I felt so relieved to find someone else who felt the same way I did! It is one of my all time favorites and I think I’ll fetch it off the bookshelf this weekend and read it again. I had never heard of Greg Boyd before I read this book and I was a little disheartened to hear of some of his views on other spiritual matters but, nevertheless I thought this was a solid book worthy of debate.

  2. I’m buying the book! We need to hear more messages like that.

  3. Reformed and Yemi…

    I loved this! Like you reformed:

    I felt so relieved to find someone else who felt the same way I did!

    I haven’t read the book either Yemi, but i sure want to now.

    Did you check over at Polycarp’s post? Some excerpts from the book are posted.

    It was interesting to hear the author/pastor say that 1,000 people left his church after he taught on this subject.

    It only goes to show how many in the US churches have come to believe this type of teaching of political or patriotic christianity, etc is biblical.

    Have either of you read The Screwtape Letters?

    I’m hoping to post a series on the letters beginning this week.

    Anyway, last night i came upon this quote from one of the letters Screwtape writes to Wormwood. He is giving ‘advice’ to his nephew about the ‘patient’ [the Christian] –

    Let him begin by treating patriotism . . . as part of his religion.

    Then let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part.

    Then quietly and gradually nurse him on to the stage at which the religion becomes merely a part of the “cause,” in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce. . . .

    Once you have made the world an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing.

    Screwtape on How to Ruin a Believer’s Faith in C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

  4. I think I’ll fetch it off the bookshelf this weekend and read it again

    If you do, i’d sure love it if you could put together a message/post on some of the high points in the book, along with your thoughts Reformed. You could either send it to me or leave it as a comment, and i’ll post it as a topic by itself…

  5. PJ,
    I will try to locate the book. It’s somewhere in the house. It’s a very engaging, fast read. I talked to my friend about it and he wasn’t interested because Greg touches on the points of how not all of our county’s founding fathers were Christians like we all want to think they were. This is a very uncomfortable admission to those who view the USA as a Christian country that was founded solely on Christian principles and that we have a duty to enforce “Christian” legislation through our government so as not to let our forefathers down. You won’t be let down if you get the book.

    The Screwtape Letters…Another classic on my favorites list. This book was an absolute work of genius as far as I’m concerned. Never before had the dark side of spiritual warfare and the tactics the enemy uses against to keep us ineffective become so real and vivid to me. That was a good reminder, PJ. You know, between this blog and then all of the links you mention, and then all of the good books to read and re-read, I need to quit my job and become a full time reader!!!! There’s not enough time for me to get to everything. I will try to reread Greg’s book and take notes and then I’ll send you an email. Thanks, sister.

    Oh, BTW, there has been some recent controversy with Greg Boyd and Clark Pinnock amongst conservative evangelicals. It seems that Greg believes in Open Theism. If you google it or go to the Monergism website and type in Greg Boyd you will see articles dealing with the debate between Greg and others like John Piper. In my opinion, it’s ashame that Greg espouses these ideas for it seems to put man in control with his free will to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and it seems to limit God’s all knowing abilities. I’d be interested in hearing anyone else’s thoughts on this if you are aware of the debate.

  6. PJ, I forget if I shared this over here or not, but you and others can go to my blog and click on the book on the right column and it will take you to CBD and you can order it really cheap.

    I have read most of it, but not all yet. When I have time, I can share some of what jumped out at me.

    I really do not get the big hub-bub about Greg believing in open theism. As he says on his blog, that is not a qualifier for heresy. I think that with anyone, you are not going to agree on everything so you just focus on what you do agree on. So that being said, don’t let other theology the author may have keep you from the core message of “The Myth of a Christian Nation.”

  7. Isn’t Boyd an Open Theist? desean

  8. Heather,
    My point was that “Myth” may be a good book based on the bases it covers but, as always, I like to know and understand the author and what he/she believes. I think it would be unfair and not very good discernment to use Greg Boyd to judge Greg Boyd. Maybe he feels it is not a qualifier for heresy but I’m not interested in his definition of heresy. After all, his definition of God’s attributes are a lot smaller, dumber and even foolish than the Bible’s. Anyone who believes that God does not know everything, that God is surprised by our choices, and that He is grieved by His own mistakes that He has made, definitely goes against anything that the Church has believed or preached until very recently. Boyd, Pinnock and Sanders sound more like modern day Arminians who believe that God reacts to our free will decisions versus using His own sovereignty to bring about His own will through us or despite us. The Church has repeatedly denounced this view (some have called it heresy). Does that jeopardize the message in “The Myth”? I don’t think so, for it is not necessarily a book on systematic theology. I wouldn’t discourage anyone from reading the book just because of his Openness interpretations. Sure, we may not agree with everything someone believes but I can’t just focus on what we agree on when the God he believes in doesn’t resemble the One that the Bible portrays. If all I did was look the other way about the stuff we don’t agree on, and only focus on what we do agree on, I suspect I could fellowship with anyone. That sounds too ecumenical and universalistic for me. If I should only focus on what we have in common and agree on then I guess I chould join Oprah’s book club or subscribe to Charisma magazine! Surely I could find things in common with them. Commonality is nice, but “how can two walk together unless they agree?” I do not agree, nor do I think the Bible agrees, with Greg’s “less than” views of God. In my opinion, that’s the hub-bub!

  9. Heather,

    Thank you soooo much!

    A close friend drove over today from Ohio, and i happened to mention these video clips, asking if she had watched them. (She goes by Oxymoron when commenting here at the blog)

    Anyway, as i pointed them out to her, i happened to check comments and saw yours…

    We went over to your blog, clicked on the book link and ordered 4 copies! LOL

    At less then $3.50 a copy, it enabled extra copies to be purchased to share with others..

    Praise the Lord! And God bless you Heather….what a blessing!

  10. Isn’t Boyd an Open Theist?

    I don’t really know anything about his beliefs outside of what he said in the clips/interview. After reading the book i may know more desean.

  11. Heather, and anyone else interested:
    My last statements may have sounded harsh. I apologize if this attitude appeared to be directed at any individual who commented here, for it was not. I am just very stubborn about defending the faith. Not just any faith, but THE faith. We all know that Satan’s tactics can be subtle. PJ, you mentioned “The Screwtape Letters”. Remember how the enemy loves to make just little tweaks in sound doctrine or beliefs to completely derail us. When we let little “differences” come into what has been held since the Church began it can have a devastating effect. Open Theism will challenge what most people know of God. This will not be a good challenge, in my opinion. It’s my contention that if one were to embrace Open Theism as sound doctrine then they could expect to one day be scratching their head, like Lee Grady, asking, “Where did we go wrong?” A couple of weeks ago we were indignant when conservative Christian leaders rallied with other faith groups in California to oppose gay marriage. Why should we not be as offended and indignant about someone who is trying to change thousands of years of glorious Church history by totally changing God’s attributes? I’m sorry, to me it’s more than a slight difference of opinion. People can rightly be excited about a few clips of Greg Boyd and run out to buy his book, but know the source and background for where this information comes from. I think discernment is needed in this matter. To read a book by anyone is not wrong in and of itself. But to prop the author up as if they can be trusted in other matters just because we agree with their opinions on one book would be unwise. Greg has written many other books (I believe somewhere around 18). “The Myth” may be one book where he is shooting in the right direction on the topic at hand. But if you were to read some of his other books, especially the ones on his openness views, I’m sure some would be disgusted and even say he’s dangerous. We denounce the Oneness theories because of evidence and faith in a Triune God. I feel that it would be beneficial and wise to denounce Openness theories, as strongly promoted by Greg, as well.

    That’s it…I’m done. I guess I’m too emotional about this subject. I don’t know if i should be happy about that or ashamed. Sometimes it feels like I’m a nit pick and I don’t want to be. I just view this as subtle heresy trying to creep in to the orthodox beliefs we’ve held for so long. That, to me, fundamentally changes even the way we view the Gospel and teach others about the God we say we believe in. This “new” theology seems like it should be more at home in the emergent church and all of their emerging conversations than in fundamental evangelical churches.

    I feel I need to take a break. Maybe I’ve fallen into a bad habit of looking at this blog as my only daily source of “food”. I think I will take some time to pray and repent and get in the Word. If I’ve offended any of you, I truly apologize and ask your forgiveness. My motive is not to offend for the sake of offending but to challenge us to earnestly contend for the faith. I love you all, despite the fact we may disagree on some things. If I don’t talk to anyone before the holiday season, then let me say “Happy Thanksgiving” and “Merry Christmas”. May God be glorified in everything we think, do, say and read!!!

  12. This pastor is such a blessing.What a shame
    that many pastors just don’t get it.It is not about
    using the pulpit as a political platform but about
    preaching Christ and encouraging believers
    to take up their cross daily!

  13. Reformed1

    If the Lord is leading you to take a break, then go with God… Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas to you as well. You are my brother and I love you and I will miss you severely.

    However…

    I believe that there is something else happening. Doubt does not come from God. I feel in my soul that everyone here really values your opinion and we look forward to hearing from you. I really feel that we are a family, I know for me I feel that this blog has become an abstract form of church of believers that meet daily. Sometimes checking in to say “hi”, encourage, pray, hotly debate important topics, or sometimes just to read what others have to say. I don’t believe for a second that this blog is your “only food”, I know that you read your Bible daily, I can tell by your words.The early church met daily and I am sure got into some pretty big debates, right? I just want you to know, that I value you, I pray for you and I want you to know that you have never personally offended me. I’m on your side with the whole Santa thing!! LOL. Perhaps God is using you to speak to someone that you were not expecting, right?

    Father,
    Please settle my brother’s heart. There are many changes that are happening inside and outside that only You know Father. Please place Him in the shadow of Your wing until the storm passes and then, if it be Your will, return him safely to us, his family that loves him. You are the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. Oh Lord, we praise you in this storm! Hallalujah! We ask these things in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer. Amen

  14. reformed one said,
    “articles dealing with the debate between Greg and others like John Piper. In my opinion, it’s ashame that Greg espouses these ideas for it seems to put man in control with his free will to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and it seems to limit God’s all knowing abilities. I’d be interested in hearing anyone else’s thoughts on this if you are aware of the debate.”

    Wow where do I start, everything about this guy looks really good on the surface but there is something sinister lurking just below the surface. After watching these clips I have some checks in my spirit about this guy. I am in the process of reading what John Piper and others have to say about it. I smell a rat that resembles the emerging church.

    More to come later.

  15. Sorry guys…

    I haven’t been keeping up with the comments in this thread [or most others], except in releasing them in the last couple days: i’ve been under the weather with a cold.

    I won’t pull comments to respond, but will say this. There are certain doctrines which are essential to the Christian faith–God’s character is one of those.

    While i believe our time here, after salvation, is spent in constantly studying and learning about our wonderful Father, Jesus, and the blessed Holy Spirit….which i believe is on-going,….. there are specific characteristics we learn or should know by simple basic readings of the bible.

    One is, God and his actions, ‘re-actions’ or his plans, do not change.

    I read this small portion of an article, by Boyd:

    If we instead think of perfection in personal terms while acknowledging that God is perfect, the last thing we’d conclude is that God is completely unchanging, devoid of potentiality, sequence-less, or devoid of emotion. Instead, if we think of perfection in personal terms, the picture of God we get is one in which he is deeply affected by his relationships with those he creates.

    Of course, God’s character and nature is eternally-the-same, but his experience of his creation is perpetually changing as he relates to perpetually changing people in a perpetually changing world.

    Is this not exactly the picture of God we get in the Bible? Where in the Bible is there any hint that God’s experience of the world is unchanging and non-sequential? The God of the Bible is continually acting and responding. He plans, and then alters plans in response to new situations. link

    I cannot agree…

    While on one had he writes: “God’s character and nature is eternally-the-same” he goes on to say basically, that God DOES change or has changed, in relation to the actions of his creation in any given ‘season’ or time frame. At least that is what my understanding is of his words:

    .. his experience of his creation is perpetually changing as he relates to perpetually changing people in a perpetually changing world.

    One of our greatest joys and comforts, and especially now, as we enter into the closing days before our Lord returns, should be that God never changes. And never will..Not his word, his promises, his reaction to us, to sin, etc etc…

    For me, its the bedrock on which i stand; To know regardless of every thing or everyone changing, my God will not.

    This:

    He plans, and then alters plans in response to new situations..

    Can be very confusing to new believers. It appears to come across, at least on the surface, as though God is taken by surprise by our actions–and by being so, has to alter his plans. That could not be further from the truth, for nothing surprises God. How can it when he sees the beginning and the ending of any situation?

    I’ll stop here…

    What i want to end with is reformed is right. We can take these clips [and the book] and know the author is speaking the truth on this subject, but not hold him or his theological positions on his views of God’s character as truth.

    Some like myself, felt a confirmation in what he speaks in these clips- why? because God has been showing us the same thing for months [or years]–that being, a huge section of the church here in the US has ‘cleaved’ to the idea we are a Christian nation, so are on a constant politically inspired and implemented goal to ‘take America back for God’…plus the never ending war to change people by political means [legislating biblical morality] through laws alone.

    Its damaged the Church…and our witness, and the perception of true Christianity before the lost of this nation.

    Its also mis-characterized Jesus—who he is, what he taught, etc….

    In this Boyd is correct.

    Just one more comment, this one personal;

    Reformed, i don’t think you came across harsh. You only came across as a good bearan and watchman, one who was concerned that we understand that though the one book is good, and holds truth, many of the authors beliefs are error…Thanks for that my friend…

    As for taking a break…i say NO! 🙂

    Or at least only take a brief one…

  16. “That’s it…I’m done. I guess I’m too emotional about this subject. I don’t know if i should be happy about that or ashamed. Sometimes it feels like I’m a nit pick and I don’t want to be. I just view this as subtle heresy trying to creep in to the orthodox beliefs we’ve held for so long. That, to me, fundamentally changes even the way we view the Gospel and teach others about the God we say we believe in. This “new” theology seems like it should be more at home in the emergent church and all of their emerging conversations than in fundamental evangelical churches.”

    Reformed, you have read his books. I have not. I would expect my brother to let me know what he saw that he feels he needs to warn others about. Why do you think that’s harsh? You are not being rude, you are not being confrontational. I appreciate that I can come here and get opinions from christians grounded in their faith. With that being said…I expect you not to take a break!

  17. PJ,
    I am so glad you said that Reformed1 is right. I was sitting here thinking how to put into words what I felt, and now, you’ve done the work for me! – And put it into much better words than I ever could have. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
    And Reformed,
    Thank you for being brave enough to speak your mind. So many times, I think, we worry about offending, and keep our silence. And I don’t think we should silently condone someting that isn’t true, because new believers can be unintentionally misled by our silence. Keep on keeping the faith. I, for one, would miss you very much if you pulled a disappearing act!

  18. Sorry breaks over!

    It’s just unacceptable, and what would the neighbor’s think?

    Reformed1 you were not rude, I was nodding my head in agreement through every word. Even though Mr. Boyd was correct and right on the pulse of something happening within the Christian community and politics (which considering his education and connections would have been pretty easy to observe) he is doing damage to the body of Christ with his theology. I was seriously interested in buying this book. Not anymore. I can not buy this book, end of story. Although it’s made amazing points, and I agree with everything in the Charlie Rose interview, heresy is heresy. I stand on my Rock.

    This is subtle, sneaky bad theology. Call me an old fogey, but I want no part of it, nor do I want to put money into supporting him. Nothing personal. Just not for me.

  19. Reformed One,

    When the Lord our Savior, Jesus Christ returns for His own, and gathers you into His arms…….it’s time to rest. Until then, you have a passion to serve, and a voice to be heard. Granted, because of our love, one to toward another, we should be sympathetic towards others, and upon how our relationship may impact them.
    But never assume that you allowed to quit, even for a time. You’re a soldier for Jesus Christ, and a very honorable one, just perhaps a little weary.
    But the fighting continues, every day, day after day, and we will not leave one of ours, behind. If you leave the battle field, the rest of us will have to share the burden of your call, and frankly, you said nothing wrong, un-biblical, or even hurtful.
    I admire your courage to love and care enough for others, to offer advice, or a warning, or even a simple be careful.
    Last time I looked, thats how we take care of each other. We wrap wounds, we sound the alarm, and we caution and support our brothers and sisters, as we move forward.
    I pray that you will remember Who is with You. I ask Jesus Christ to remind you, that you are living in His will: “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will!” (Eph. 1: 11)
    Your a draftee my friend. We all are. Enjoy the fight. And have peace in knowing that His Spirit leads you.

  20. Reformed1, I sure hope you check in here and see how much you are loved here and I assure you that I have never been offended by anything you have said. I want to thank you for speaking up about this and I agree with you buddy. I hope you don’t stay gone too long from us. We will miss you brother.

  21. WOW!!! I didn’t mean to cause such a firestorm on your keyboards! LOL Since so many people addressed me let me just say “Thank you”. Your words were kind. Sometimes I get frustrated because I don’t know half the stuff some of you are talking about (Nephilim, David Flynn, Rushdoony, CUFI, etc). Maybe I put some undue pressure on myself to “catch up” with you guys. But there’s one thing I’m not totally unaware of: the nature of the all knowing and caring God that the Bible so beautifully portrays to us. Maybe Greg’s views rub me the wrong way because I know that God didn’t just react in my life–He acted!!! I was raised in a Christian environment and even went to private Christian school. I listened to Christian music and we went to a Christian dentist who filled our cavities with Christian fillings! That’s what it seemed like to me growing up, anyways. My dad said he would help pay for my college as long as I went to a Christian college. So I applied to 4 Christian colleges and was accepted by all 4. I picked the one furthest away from my parents: Geneva College in Beaver Falls, PA. I didn’t go for the right reasons and ended up dropping out. I only went to get out from under my parents thumb and finally live MY life the way I wanted to. All the Christian stuff was fine and for some reason I never doubted it was true, but I just didn’t want anything to do with it anymore. I felt force fed against my will and just wanted it to stop. Long story short, I ended up getting messed up in alcohol and drugs. I won’t go into too many details but let’s just say that I should have been dead numerous times, and on more than a few occasions, I actually tried to end my own life. The fact that I was unsuccessful ticked me off even more. I remember one night, under the influence of way too much alcohol, looking up at the sky and shaking my fist and yelling at the top of my lungs, “What do you want from me???? Why won’t you let me die?” I didn’t get an immediate answer. At the time it seemed like God had a sick sense of humor where I was concerned. He wouldn’t let me die, but He wouldn’t show me a reason to stay around, either. I remember even taunting my parents by using the verse “Train up a child” against them. I told them, “Well, so much for that idea…you guys raised me the right way and look how I turned out.” I was so angry and rude. Mostly angry. I thought that maybe if I went back to church I could find my way to the straight and narrow. I’ve had pastors give up on me because they said I was too stubborn, hard-headed and rebellious. I couldn’t disagree…I was. But I didn’t want to be. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to feel like you’re one of the living dead. And then on top of that to have all the knowledge about God that I had and it wasn’t making any difference. I thought maybe the emerging church is where I would fit in. They all seemed like rebellious misfits. Maybe that would be where I would find my niche. But it didn’t take long to see that they were on the same path to nowhere that I was already on. That seemed like the blind leading the blind. One night I was reading a blog on the Ooze (an emergent blog) and they were being brutal to this guy who was a reformed Calvinist. I didn’t really know what that was so I googled it. I started reading all kinds of stuff about the Protestant Reformation. Within that search I remember thinking to myself that all of a sudden years and years of knowing about God and Christianity never translated into me knowing God or being a Christian. As I read about how we are all blind and rebellious to God because of sin and that it takes regeneration from the Spirit to allow us to see the truth it was as if I had my own Damascus Road experience. Not physically, but spiritually. My eyes were opened and for the first time in my pitiful life I knew that God wanted me for Himself. I couldn’t even take my own life because He had something already destined for me. He kept me alive for His purposes! It made so much sense that it almost scared me. I repented and believed for the first time of my life. And now that I know that God didn’t wait for me to act to see how He would re-act, well, I get a little offended when someone says that’s the way God is. He knew me from eternity past and chose me to be one of His! It blows my mind!!!! RC Sproul once said that the unique thing about Christianity versus all the other religions in the world is that with all the other religions people try all kinds of things to find God, but with Christianity, it’s all the things God did to find us! It’s a gift that I do not deserve. But somehow God allowed me to partake. I didn’t say all of this to convert anyone to Calvinism or reformed theology. I just wanted to convey why Greg’s openness views offend me so much and why I reacted so harshly. His god couldn’t save me, but my God did!!! That’s something I take to heart and would die to defend. How many people will go down the same long, lonely road I did because of a twisted view of God? Well, I’ve rambled long enough.

    I do consider what we are and what we do here to be Church. Even though I feel God has blessed me and my family to be able to attend a solid church, this in no way is anything less than Church! I have new family that I have met here and I enjoy “talking” with you every chance I can. I love my family (even the 80’s punk rockers with purple hair!). PJ, I’ve come to think of you as my spiritual mother. I know you are earnest in your love for the Church. Your words inspire me and challenge me so often. Thank you. Dave2, message received. Thanks for the admonition to enjoy the fight. Your post really convicted me and gave me hope and encouragement. All my sisters (B, Lisa, Kari, Kit, and my twin sis Lucy) thanks. I love you all, too. And last, but definitely not least, Father, thank you for calling us all to you. Thank you that we can experience your love for us and our love for each other. That would not be possible if you had not first loved us. Thank you for family who prays and cares. Help us to become even more like You every day. Amen!

  22. Woo Hoo! I am so happy Reformed1, I thought I might have to fire up a rig and drive down to PA and as my Momma would say”Smack some sense into that boy” . I am sure glad I don’t have to do that, I love ya too much to smack you around. I will leave that to your Mrs. hehe

    I loved your story, sounds so much like the rest of us. And this quote: “RC Sproul once said that the unique thing about Christianity versus all the other religions in the world is that with all the other religions people try all kinds of things to find God, but with Christianity, it’s all the things God did to find us!” That is one of my all time favorite quotes, I use that on people all the time.It makes them stop and think. Like your posts do. leas feel free to express yourself on here, we love you and support you. We are a church, with Pastor PJ. You know I have struggled with some of the same things you have, and I traveled down the emergent road for a very short trip, it makes me angry too. Lucy and I were just talking about this yesterday, how dangerous a path that is for a new believer.

    Anyway you are needed here, and we love you. You know I am struggling with not attending church right now. I am just trusting God will either lead me back to my Church or to another. It’s very confusing, but I know I have fellowship here. I think God put me on sabbatical, now people find that unbiblical. But I am trying to find my way, on the right road to the City of our God. So far I have not moved a muscle, but thank you all for being here while I sit on the side of the road and take a break. Reformed1 thanks for being my brother in Christ. And thank you Lord for these precious people. We are blessed to have found each other.

  23. I am so happy! Our brother is back! I was so sad when I read you were taking a break but I understood if you felt you really needed one. However I think we were all hoping that you would reconsider, I even told Bucket on the phone we needed to pray for you.

    Reformed, I feel the same way sometimes that I don’t know as much as the others about some of the posts. Some of them are just over my little spiritual head and I am not ready to engage in conversation about them, sometimes I read them and just see if I can learn something from the others and sometimes I think they might be speaking Greek or something and I have no idea what they are talking about. But that is all okay because God will give me the ability to understand things when He is ready for me to.

    You know I used to say when I used to read more secular things that I would never have enough time to read all the books that I want to in my life time, now I just read what I am feeling a leading to read.

    I agree with you about Boyd, there is no way that I would be here today if God had just reacted in my life, no HE acted in every one of our lives in big ways.

    I am with you Bucket, I want no part of this guys books even though this particular one goes along with what we have been talking about for a while. When I listened to these clips yesterday they seemed fine but there were just a few little very suttle hints at something else that led me to go and read some more about him. In some ways I believe this man’s theology is much more dangerous than what we saw with Lakeland and all that becuase this looks so right in so many ways that it will be too easy for folks to buy into this.

    I also had a thought when he was talking about his 5,000 member mega church (which also rubbed me the wrong way) that when he said 1000 people left it popped into my mind the question, were they sheep or goats? Just a question, I don’t know one way or the other but usually sheep tend to be in the minority. Again this was just what came to me after hearing that, I am not calling anyone a goat.

    PJ I am so sorry you are not feeling good I am praying that you feel better really soon.

  24. Well, part of me is not sure if I should have ever mentioned this book now with the “hub-bub” Boyd is causing. 🙂

    I have to say I am surprised if some of you have found other Christians with whom you have no doctrinal or theological differences. I could never fellowship with anyone if I had that goal in mind because I find much of what are considered “orthodox” beliefs and “fundamental evangelicalism” to be distortions of what I read in the Bible. Much of what is held dear as fundamental beliefs I have discovered to be nothing more than traditions of men or pagan beliefs. We live in a time of complete confusion = Babylon and it is most apparent in the mainstream Christian church all across the board.

    But even so, I realize that one can still be serving the LORD with all his/heart heart even if we have differences of belief in some theology.

    I just think to have someone pointing people to Jesus and His ways is better than most of what we have going on today – theology in other areas aside. And I don’t remember the Bible saying we will be judged for our theology or doctrine in the end versus how we tried to replicate Jesus (parable of the sheep and goats, for example).

    I guess this post has opened up some things that have shown me I am quite the minority over here. I’m not sure if you all would really want me to share various things – you might run me off as a heretic. 🙂

  25. I’m not sure if you all would really want me to share various things – you might run me off as a heretic.

    O Heather….no no no…no one thinks you’re a heretic! ahaha!! If they do, then im one too, because…..

    I’m looking FORWARD to receiving my copy of Gregory Boyd’s “The Myth of a Christian Nation” …i believe its going to be right-on from what he says in the clips and from the few excerpts i read at Polycarps blog. Can’t wait to get my hands on it. LOL

    I just don’t agree with his thoughts on some of the issues pointed out in my previous post, but it will not keep me from hearing the truth on this issue of America/politics, etc.

    Some of us are able to do this…others still cannot.

    If i only read things written by other Christians with whom i agree 100% with on all issues, i’d never read any books outside of the bible.

    Your help in pointing my friend and i to a website where we were able to purchase them at such a discount was indeed a blessing!…

    Lucy

    I also had a thought when he was talking about his 5,000 member mega church (which also rubbed me the wrong way) that when he said 1000 people left it popped into my mind the question, were they sheep or goats?

    Why would they have to be either sweetie?

    Perhaps they just didn’t like what they were hearing–that being that the political Christian movement of the last 30 years has hindered the cause of Christ. Many Christians, those mainly who have made right wing politics an idol, cannot stand to hear that truth pointed out. That would not make them goats or sheep, nor would it make those who stayed either one….

    Our salvation isn’t based on issues such as those brought out in the clips–though i do agree with him, many have been [and are] sinning by committing idolatry by their dependence on politics/government to accomplish what only the Gospel can…

    As far as him mentioning the size of his congregation, listen again….he was asked by the interview-er the size. I don’t think he was bragging in the least, only pointing out that 20% of them left when he preached the series on this topic.

    I had to smile when hearing that because right here on this tiny blog, i’ve lost long time readers or contributors over some of the issues i brought up during this election season. I’ve also received email from a few who were really upset with me, to put in mildly, telling me i am anti-America, not a ‘true’ Christian, etc. …many many other accusations were tossed my way…

    There will always be those who bristle at truth Lucy, and leave a church or even leave off fellowship-ing with you if you point it out to them.

  26. Reformed..

    Glad to see you! 🙂

  27. PJ – I am glad the link was a blessing to you in order to purchase the book so cheap. My husband and I cannot figure out why it is so cheap because it is a nice, hardcover book. Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

    “If i only read things written by other Christians with whom i agree 100% with on all issues, i’d never read any books outside of the bible.” LOL! That’s exactly my sentiments.

    As far as no one thinking I’m a heretic, that’s because I haven’t shared much at this point. 🙂 I was attracted to your site based on the election and I was happy to find others who had similar, unbiased opinions about politics as well as others who had eyes to see some blatant false prophecies and the like in the “church.”

    But in other areas, I have read various rather adamant opinions on some things and can see where it would lead if I was honest about my views. So, I try to be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove. And I guess when I hear of people with different doctrine/theology from my own conclusions, I hear 2 Timothy 2 in my head: “And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition…”

  28. Wow,

    I think I am the one who needs a break. Heather, since when does having a discussion with differences of opinion brand one a heretic? I apologize if anything I have said would make you feel that way. I hope no one here was coming across that way. I wonder, is your promotion of this book personal? You recommended a book that makes a great point and I am sure many people will be reading it. It’s also wonderful you included a post so everyone could buy an affordable copy, That was a huge blessing to people. I just personally do not want a copy of this book, and PJ if that makes me closed minded or whatever you implied by your previous post then I am sorry. I just do not want to financially support someone who has decided to change the attributes of God. If that makes me not as spirtual, or intelligent as the rest of you folks, well call me stupid, uptight whatever.

  29. Hi Heather,

    Glad no one ran you off. Again I am sorry if anything has upset you. You sure are a fan of this book. I just wondered if you worked for someone or had some connection to this book. lol You have mentioned it on every post. I am sorry if I do not agree, and yes I have strong views about anything “extra biblical”. If it’s in there then by all means I would like to know. I am still growing and learning and I am open to discussion. But from what I have read concerning Boyd (mostly his debate with Piper) then yes I strongly disagree. Like I said I am still learning.

    PJ I am sorry but I took your last post to be condescending. I apologize if I was curt. I understand what you are saying…but it just sounded wierd.

  30. PJ if that makes me closed minded or whatever you implied by your previous post then I am sorry. I just do not want to financially support someone who has decided to change the attributes of God. If that makes me not as spirtual, or intelligent as the rest of you folks, well call me stupid, uptight whatever.

    O my goodness B…why would you ever think i was pointing out anyone being closed minded because they are not interested in this book? No, no no…not at all!

    I was only trying to point out that there may be people who can read this book, because of the topic, and see the truth in it, while others cannot because of other beliefs the author has.

    Its no put down on either those who do or those who chose not to….honest! 🙂

    My desire to read it was based on what he wrote in the excerpts i read plus what reformed wrote:

    I remember when I saw this book on the shelf at a Christian bookstore I snatched it up and devoured it. I felt so relieved to find someone else who felt the same way I did! It is one of my all time favorites and I think I’ll fetch it off the bookshelf this weekend and read it again.

    I would never encourage anyone here to read it or not read it….or judge their reasons for choosing either option.

    Forgive me B if i failed to communicate my thoughts more plainly, and if by not doing so, i brought one second of distress to you–i love you.

    Are we all having a mis-communication problem in this thread? LOL…

    Maybe i should lock it….would that help?

    I have read various rather adamant opinions on some things and can see where it would lead if I was honest about my views.

    Heather

    I’ve always welcomed every brother and sister to be honest in their opinions on anything posted here, as long as it was done in the love of Christ. We all may not always agree, but discussion can be beneficial even when we can’t.

    If we be in Christ then we are one family. Even natural families do not always agree…

  31. What is happening? Why are we becoming so disconnected? Feathers are getting ruffled, intelligence is being insulted…Fear of being branded a heretic?

    None of us as Christians agree on theology, period. We do, however, agree on basic tenants of our faith, right? We come to this blog as like-minded Christians who recognize that there are 2 Jesus’s being taught these days and we see most of our brothers and sisters chasing after the wrong one. Some of us are more Calvinistic, some more Arminian, some speak in tongues, some believe that ended with the writing of the New Testament, etc. We all agree on some basic premises however, “God is the same yesterday, today and forever” being one of them, Amen? When we come across someone teaching what is not in scripture of is even misleading someone away from scripture, we warn each other, right? Mrs. Bucket, you know your limits and that is a wonderful blessing. Some can drink a glass of wine and not sin, while others know it will lead them to sin. Mrs. B, God has blessed you to know your temptations and that is awesome!!! Do not be ashamed, baby girl! I’m like you, I fear anything that comes out of the mouth of someone who does not hold God up to the same standards as me.

    I can’t keep up or understand half of this stuff on here either, but the Spirit leads me to the posts that touch me and the other ones read like, “blah, blah, blah” (right Mrs Bucket?!? LOL). I have come to understand that the spirit leads PJ to post for some on one topic, and to others on the other topic.

    Let us disagree, and then laugh at Reformed1inpa chewing on Irish Spring, or Lucy’s crazy son putting them on a phone budget, or Mrs. Bucket’s purple hair!

    I love each and every one of you for the things that you bring every day. I have laughed and cried daily as I read your stories and it connects me to the body of Christ in a connection that I just don’t feel in my own church. I look forward to going to Times Square with Mrs. B, sportin’ our mo-hawks up in there!

  32. Sorry guys, and yes PJ mostly you,

    I need a midol. I quit church and now my Pastor is emailing me !!!!! I have been wroking seven days a week and trying to be Christ like to the poor misguided woman who quit on me, hence working so much (when I would really like to let her have my two cents worth). So this all just came out wrong. I love you too PJ. Heather, I am again sorry! Can you understand this sister? My God has done amazing things in my life, he is my rock, my salvation and my strength. Anyone who tried to alter his word or change it to suit some sort of agenda, well no matter how well meaning bothers me. In fact it angers me. Maybe that is wrong but Kari is right I know my limits.

    PJ please forgive me, I was telling Lucy the other day how much I admired the Apostle John and fancied that I was like him….lololol Boy how much I am like Peter. That just aggravates me to no end. Guys I will hop right out of that boat, cut off yer ear, and put my foot in my mouth whenever I get the chance. So this Boyd guy bothers me. I love you all! And somebody pass the chocolate and chips!

  33. mrsbucket – I am glad you wrote another post. Earlier, I typed a bunch of stuff to reply, but I didn’t want to cause more confusion so I deleted it. Anyway, I apologize for anything I said that caused any angry responses. I wouldn’t mind if someone would tell me what I said that came out wrong.

    In all sincerity, I have no special reason to promote Boyd’s book other than the fact that my husband and I were just happy to find someone saying the same things we had thought regarding Christians mixing politics. Because we know many ultra right wing Christians, it seemed like a message many need to hear. I only mentioned it in a few conversations because it seemed pertinent.

    And thank you PJ for your kind words. Sorry to cut this off abruptly – my hubby and son are waiting for me to play a game. 🙂

  34. PJ,

    You said: “Are we all having a mis-communication problem in this thread? LOL…

    Maybe i should lock it….would that help?”

    I started to have the same feelings. But Kari really made me realize something when she said: “The early church met daily and I am sure got into some pretty big debates, right?” I pondered that for a minute or two and had to agree with her. BTW, thanks Kari! Down through history the Church has had to wrestle with doctrinal ideas that popped up and sometimes had to draw a line in the sand when some things crossed over from being freedom in non-essentials to outright heresy. I think that one of the things I love about this site is that, for the most part, the regulars who post seem to genuinely love the Lord and His Church. I don’t feel that any one of us would want to intentionally jeopardize the high standards the Lord has for us. Debate is how I learn a lot of things. But as Christ’s children I would hope that even in debate it would not be to puff ourselves up with pride or arrogance but to poke and prod each other gently and in love. I know a few months ago, on this site, I admitted that I struggle with judgmentalism. I am trying to use proper judgment in anything I say but I am not perfect. I would seek and accept any one’s admonition or discipline when I step over the line. Maybe I have done that on this post.

    My opinion of this book has not changed. The topic is one that I think is important and needs to be heard. I think Greg wrote a great book that challenges all of us to look at the way Christians should view politics. Even if we don’t agree about some theological points that this book doesn’t address, to my recollection, much truth can be gleaned from it. I never limit myself to what I potentially read based on whether I agree with the author 100% on everything, for as Heather so correctly pointed out, I would never be able to find a book that falls in that category! BUT, if I was getting ready to read a book by someone I didn’t know much about, and someone else had knowledge, and especially if that person thought it might cause me any amount of harm to me by reading it, I would want someone to lovingly approach me about that. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t read the book, it just means that I would have to judge what’s being said in the book with the Bible, to see if it agrees, and I would have to understand the context in which it was written based on the author’s views. That being said, I feel that it could be beneficial for anyone to read this book by Greg. It really is a good book. My original intent was not to tell people to not buy the book but to warn people that maybe the author comes from a different set of theological beliefs than what it seems most of us hold firm to. God has given us much liberty and freedom, even in our new lives, but we should never be quick to offend others or cause them to stumble over freedoms that we do not personally struggle with. Surely Greg is entitled to his opinions about the nature of God. In my heart I struggle with authors like him because he does seem to love the Lord greatly. I think his intentions are out of a sincere heart. I don’t hate him, nor would I want anyone else to. Sometimes we just need to agree to disagree. Even though the issue of open theism seems foreign to what I believe the Bible shows us, I see no reason why we could not still lovingly be engaged with Greg in meaningful discussion. And even if we never agree, maybe we can still have Christ like love for each other so that the world would not see the Body divided. This is something the Lord would have to convict each individual of.

    Heather,
    Please be patient with me. I am sorry for coming across too strong. Please forgive me for offending you, if I have. I think debate can be very informative and profitable if done in love and charity. I don’t know all of your views so it would be unfair for me to judge you as a heretic. Heresy is a strong charge that should be reserved for only those things that are truly heresy. In fact, I don’t come here to be some sort of heresy hunter. We may differ on much but that doesn’t mean we can’t be part of the same family and as such should love each other. Please, please do not let the heated discussion that this post has brought up in any way discourage you from visiting here and commenting as much as you want. I trust PJ and know that she is not afraid to lovingly converse with those of us who have different opinions on different subject matter. But, I also know that she loves the Lord deeply and would not want this to be a site where we let opinions that go against the Word go unchallenged. I love her and this site because so many times it truly has been iron sharpening iron. I think that you are right, Heather, when you infer that so many people who hold to fundamental Christian values can be misled if they do not understand the reason they adhere to those values. Everything, everything, must adhere to the Word of God. Certainly if we are in error we should willingly welcome discussion with someone who can point us in the right direction. But opinions that have no basis in the Word don’t hold a lot of weight for me. That is what I perceive is attacking the Church and her mission right now. We must get back to the Word and study it, and know it, and obey it. The only way I can see anyone correctly calling you a heretic would be if you continually trashed the Word in favor of your own opinions. Surely I have not seen anything as of yet that would even come close to that. Maybe some other views you hold do but I don’t know because we’ve not discussed them. But, know this, I am not saying you are a heretic based on anything that you’ve said. If indeed any of us hold to any form of heresy I would pray it would come to light and we could lovingly use the gifts God has given each of us to rightly admonish and love the person, hopefully bringing them into a proper view. Please feel free to visit and comment. “Come, let us reason together”.

    MrsB,
    You said: “Woo Hoo! I am so happy Reformed1, I thought I might have to fire up a rig and drive down to PA and as my Momma would say”Smack some sense into that boy” . I am sure glad I don’t have to do that, I love ya too much to smack you around. I will leave that to your Mrs. hehe”

    HaHa…how did you know that if I do have any sense, it’s because the Mrs. was smacking it into me?! I’d still love to see you fire up a rig and drive on up here!!!

    “You know I am struggling with not attending church right now.” I sympathize. It can be very, very hard to find a decent church in these times. The Word has taken a back seat to opinion and “ticklish ears”. I hope and pray that you will remain strong and encouraged despite the fact that you currently don’t have a physical church to fellowship with. Thank God that you are finding fellowship here until the Lord leads you otherwise. Hang in there…it’ll happen. I have been blessed by you so much and love you deeply. I know you have a wonderful heart and passion for our Lord. Follow the leading of the Spirit in your life. He convicts us differently sometimes. Where one may be “stronger” to be able to handle reading a book with someone we disagree with others may not find that so easy or agreeable. If the Lord is leading you not to read or support it, then obey! I have much in common with the way you feel. BTW, one truckload of Midol, chocolate and chips heading your way!!! LOL!!! You have a heart of gold and are very passionate for what the Lord has done, and continues to do, for you. Praise God! The extra-biblical stuff, I’m with you sis. Homey don’t play that!!!!

    My precious twin sis,
    I love the work the Lord is doing in all of us. Isn’t it great? It doesn’t always feel great at the time, but when we come out the other side stronger in our faith in Him, it’s a wonderful thing. I know you, B and I have much in common. Follow the Lord as He leads you. I don’t view you as weak for not wanting to read the book or support it. I don’t view someone as weaker or stronger based on whether they read this book or not. We are all unique in our passions and if the Lord has placed it on your heart to not read it or support it then feel no shame or condemnation in doing so. I would say that the sheep/goat thing is something that I don’t know. I agree with PJ that it may not even be relevant to why these people left. The fact is so many people view the Republican party as God’s party that for anyone to say otherwise may cause a schism. Maybe the 1000 people who left have more faith in the politics of the Republican party than they do in the Lord. In that case, maybe it’s better they left. Who knows? But I don’t think it necessarily had to have been a sheep/goat issue. Thanks for your words. I always look forward to hearing from you. I’m either gonna have to move down there or you and B are gonna have to move up here! Something tells me we would have a LOT of fun!!!!

    Kari,
    Your last post really made me thank God for giving us all to each other. You have a spirit of peace in your comments. I think we needed that after some “heated” discussion. Lines were drawn and I think some feelings were hurt and your comments were like salve on a wound to heal us back together. I love you, too, and thanks for speaking up.

    You said: “Let us disagree, and then laugh at Reformed1inpa chewing on Irish Spring, or Lucy’s crazy son putting them on a phone budget, or Mrs. Bucket’s purple hair!

    I love each and every one of you for the things that you bring every day. I have laughed and cried daily as I read your stories and it connects me to the body of Christ in a connection that I just don’t feel in my own church. I look forward to going to Times Square with Mrs. B, sportin’ our mo-hawks up in there!”

    You all just have to keep going there with the Irish Spring thing, don’t you?! LOL Kari, thanks for drawing us back together and having such a heart for peace and unity.

  35. Ahhhh, you guys are great.

    Heather…you otta get a load of some of the things I read and post for others to read! Oh my! If someone saw my reading list, they would surely assume I was some kind of heritic if they didn’t know me and regardless, some may still think I’m a little weird at the very least.

    In fact…I am even going to the Roswell Ancient of Days UFO conference in 2009…pre- registered and all. I am so excited! Mike Heiser is speaking and I can’t wait! I had to put that in because I really am excited and don’t tend to tell people about that part of me..but I had to tell you guys.

    We all have our limits and our limits are very individual. My limits and weaknesses are unique to me. While I can read something and be able to tease through what’s true and what’s not on one subject, there are 1000 other somethings I would not be able to do the same thing with. That’s where warnings from other brothers and sisters who have strength in that area help.

    Anyway Heather, I am glad you’re here and so is everyone else.

    Boo-Kay. I hope your ordeal with work will be over soon. I’ve been thinkin’ about ya! I got a big ol’ variety pack of chips and tootsie rolls for ya! How could I forget Matthew Stephen. It was my search to find others who were uncomfortable with that man that led me here! So I suppose for me, something good came out of that little worm because I got to come here.

    Kari, Lucy, PJ, Lisa , Boo-Kay, Reformed and Heather and all of you guys…please don’t ever be afraid to tell me if you think I am way off base.

  36. I love you dudes. Reformed1, ask Mr. Lucy, you DO NOT want us moving anywhere near you. We are a case….and you have lots of sense if you ask me. And I agree with what you said.

    Kari, you are the voice of reason here I believe, you soothed the savage bucket.. And Heather…I wanted you to know I checked out your blog. Your story about the stroller really blessed me so much! Your faith in that was amazing, and I kept thinking about that story all day!

    Kit, I think you may be almost as weird as me..nope, not possible! And my friends husband is going to be so jealous of you going to the UFO conference. He is such a space geek and a trekkie. He got kicked out of a Star Trek group in England because he was “too intense” We crack up at that all the time. I have already emailed him some of your links. I am not into some of the things you are, but I am a history geek. I used to drag Lucy to these Native American things, oh Lord help me. It was hilarious really. And so many other strange things….oh and I hate clowns. ROFL

    How could anyone be any wierder, clown hating. Yep, they scare me….ooh.

    Anyway somebody call poor ole David Wilkerson and warn him before we fire up the rig. I though maybe we could borrow Russo’s schoolbus and head on up to NYC. What a crew we are! I love you people, you make my day everyday!

  37. Hey everyone, I wrote a few responses yesterday but they must have gotten lost in that large world called cyber space or something. I don’t remember at this point what I even wrote I have had a crazy couple of days. We are deciding what to do about our 131/2 year old cocker spaniel that is on her last leg, I can’t come home to a house full of poo anymore, I am a germaphobe and me and poo just don’t mix well. Anyway I was just wanting to say that the whole comment about the sheep and goats was just stupid, it was just a stupid thought that went through my mind at the time. I am sure they are all sheep and every herd has a few goats mixed in, I shouldn’t have said it, it wasn’t very nice and I am sorry that I did.

    Reformed1 thankyou so much for your sweet loving spirit, I am proud to call you my twin brother in Christ.

    Kari you always make me laugh. I love ya sister. Bucket you know I love you because I tell you every day. Kittykit I just plain get a kick out of you, you are just the neatest person from what I can tell from the blog, I just love you all.

    Heather I am convinced that there have got to be so many more things that you and I agree on than things that we don’t. We just seem to have gotten aquainted on the wrong topics. I hope we will have an opportunity to see what we do have in common on future posts. I will warn you though if you hang around this blog long enough you start spilling your guts to a bunch of people that you don’t even know what they look like or if they are using their real names or not. I say that because Lucy is not my name, I stole it from the little girl in Narnia becasue Mrs. B called me that one day. And after you are sharing back and forth with people on here for a little while you feel like you know them and you grow to love them and pray for them often. I am convinced that our Father in heaven is just so pleased when he sees us all loving one another.

    God bless you all and good night.
    Lucy

  38. Kittykit,
    I hope you will give us a detailed report of what is said at your 2009 conference. I have not ever believed in UFOs or aliens or ETs, but the posts about Nephilim and some of the links others have shared have piqued my curiosity on the subject. I don’t know where I’ll end up with my opinions on this subject but I would still like to here what others are saying. Hope you have fun and take good notes!!!!

  39. PJ – did you get your books yet??? I hope you’ll let us know when you read it. I read through it last week to make sure I didn’t skip parts in my jumping around chapters previously and at the end, all I could say was a huge “AMEN!” I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you get to it.

  40. Heather,

    Funny you should ask, i just got my copy yesterday and got into the intro and first chapter last night!

    If the rest of it is anything like what i read last evening i will join you in a huge AMEN! 🙂

    After i finish it i plan on posting about my thoughts…[in a new post]…

    When he wrote in the intro how there were those in his church who wept when hearing his sermon series, i totally understood. I wanted to weep reading only the first 21 pages last night.

    I kept thinking ‘thank you Lord–you showed this to someone whom you also gave the talent to, to express it so well’…

  41. Heather and PJ
    Share your thoughts on the book The Myth of a Christian Nation when you are finished or maybe share a little as you are reading. Maybe just need to buy the book myself or put it on my list for Christmas.

  42. PJ and all
    Don’t know if this has already been posted but thought this was very good as well

    http://www.theocentric.com/culture/politics/myth_of_christian_america.html

  43. Reformed…I was so angry yesterday! I think I almost blew a gasket!

    I have to “apply” for the time off at work. Turns out they are doing a lottery for the 4th of July…even though it falls on a Saturday. So I won’t find out for a couple of months if I am off work or not the Friday and Monday before! Silly me, I thought requesting the time off 8 months in advance would have been sufficient but alas no.

    I am so sad. Mom says don’t be, that if God wants me to go, He’ll let me and if not, He’ll close the door. It’s a Christian perspective on what that stuff really is, but it is taking place during the UFO festival….who knows. I hope it works out. My mom is such a fuddy duddy…she thinks I’m crazy…then again, she is my mom and has seen her truley crazy daughter in action…so I suppose she has reason!

  44. Share your thoughts on the book The Myth of a Christian Nation when you are finished or maybe share a little as you are reading. Maybe just need to buy the book myself or put it on my list for Christmas.

    Kelli,

    That’s what i want to do–and im hoping that those who have already read it, like Heather and Reformed, and whomever else, will jump in and add to it…

    I’m going to put up a new post concerning the contents, hopefully in the next few days.

    I’ll tell you, already this book has confirmed so many things which the Lord has been showing me for the last few years…

    The book is well worth $3.99 and more! ORDER HERE

  45. PJ:
    Just ordered the book and can’t wait, didn’t realize it was only 3.99. Need to put this on RR for others to order this book. Yes, the Lord has well has put this on my heart as well in the last few years. Our Lord is the True and Faithful Witness AMEN!!!

  46. PJ
    Is Gregory Boyd part of the emergent church? Thanks ahead of time

  47. Kelli..

    No, not from my understanding, and not according to what i’ve read in this book.

    I know there are a couple of the more stringent discernment websites which have tried to tie him into the whole emergent crowd and teachings, mainly because of his papers on open theism [which i don’t agree with] but his thoughts in this particular book, The Myth of a Christian Nation’, actually speaks against the idea we, the church, can use anything besides the Gospel, to change people or nations. The emergent teachings actually say the opposite–or many of their teachers do.

    His thoughts concerning how we have damaged Christianity and lessened the influence of the gospel by years of trying to influence the world by using ‘kingdom of the world’ principles, through political means, instead of understanding we are of a different kingdom, that of the Kingdom of God, is right on target….

    You’re going to find Kelli, that many Christians are going to fight against this idea–because its so ingrained in our westernized American church. Some will even become angry with you. I saw that right here on this blog under a few posts made months back on the American flag. lol, it was actually weird…but it showed me how many believers view Christ, the gospel, Christianity, America and patriotism as synonymous.

    Christian Imperialism has made deep inroads in the churches in this nation over the last 30 years. .its a form of Dominionism.

    Click here ….. and here… to see what i mean.

    looking forward to discussing with you the contents of this book after we both read it! It’ll be interesting to see what we each agree [or disagree] with…(im on chapter 3)

    God bless

  48. Thanks PJ and know what you mean that others are going to fight and be angry against us on this and see it happening already and not surprised. The Lord has revealed this to us and others about the political system of this world, not everyone is ready for this so it seems, and just as we weren’t 5-10 years ago.
    Thanks again PJ and looking forward to reading Gregory Boyd’s book.
    Yes, agree with you as Dominionism is in the church. :o( People are worshipping nations, flags other than Our Lord Jesus Christ. :o(

    There is no link to click on PJ but if it’s the article Dominionism and The Rise of Christian Imperialism, I read it and posted that on RR a while ago, is that one of the ones you were sharing with me?
    Thanks again for getting back with me PJ. :o)

  49. Ok PJ and thanks as I now can click on the two articles and have read them both
    previously. But it is good to have them on here for others to see.
    God Bless you sister
    kelli

  50. Thanks for the link Kelli – I don’t have time to read it all now, but from browsing, I’m going to save it for future reference. I like how the person gets into the history of various things including the Revolutionary War.

    That’s great that you got a copy of the book too! At first, I was kind of nervous that my mentioning it has gotten it so much attention and I was thinking, “Oh Lord, I hope that is something you want people spending their time reading!” But I really think it is such an important message – no matter what Greg Boyd’s other theology and associations are.

    Perhaps we all might be on that page already thanks to wisdom from the Holy Spirit, but I think it is a great reference for others who are still in the dark. I used to be there with all my self-righteous, right-wing conservative, patriotic, nationalistic views – but praise the LORD – He used my husband to bring up similar arguments Boyd raises that totally gave me a paradigm shift and I feel so free now! 🙂 I feel like such a peace-filled person now compared to how I used to be when I’d get all fired up about political issues…anyone else relate?!? 🙂

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