Most recent Mary apparition

The latest Mary apparition in the Philippines, sends a message. (HT) There is a question at the end; any info you may have would be appreciated..

…Mary went on to say that she wanted them to stay simple, and not to judge who is right or wrong…

Inquirer Headlines: Miracle on the mountain: ‘My Mother is here’


I was there on Sept. 7 when more than 1,000 Marian devotees huddled for hours in the rain, under umbrellas and tarpaulins on a mountain in Batangas.

They were waiting to see if their beloved Mama Mary would appear once again to Canada-based Emma C. de Guzman, who holds healing sessions twice a year in a shrine on Mount Batulao, which pilgrims call their “Mountain of Salvation.”

They didn’t wait in vain.

On the eve of the feast that Catholics celebrate as Mary’s birthday, signs and wonders seemed to indicate that she had indeed appeared for the fifth year in a row to this humble woman who had worked for years as an overseas contract worker.

There were signs on the moon and in the heavens, even reports of angels seen in the trees. For many, the fragrance of flowers lingered for hours, as the visionary’s face and veil became covered with gold dust or escarchas.

The prayer vigil was scheduled to start at 6 p.m., but even before noon, pilgrims were making their way up the mountain. By 2 p.m. buses and cars lined the roadside beyond the Don Bosco Retreat House.

Only a few jeepneys and tricycles were allowed to shuttle people to the top of the mountain. A tent had been set up to accommodate those waiting for a ride, but it was no match for the blustery weather that drenched the ever swelling number of bodies that crowded within. Those outside struggled to stay dry under umbrellas twisting in the wind. It would be a long, wet wait, often more than 30 minutes, as some vehicles were already mired in rivulets of thick mud and gravel on the bumpy, narrow road that snaked past the mountain’s precipice.

Though closer to the apparition site, these provided no visual access to the video screens that had been set up above and below. Emma was seen to make her way up through the crowd trying to extend some comfort. Later she made an announcement that she felt in her heart that the many who couldn’t be accommodated within the glade would not be left out, and would perhaps even “see” more than those below. Prophetic words indeed and those whom she had touched reported that a fragrance of flowers lingered for hours.

By 6 p.m., the priests who were to celebrate the first of two Masses had to struggle to make their way down through the dense crowds just to reach the altar. For some, the signs and wonders would begin.

Angel stories

Monique Lanting, who was seated on the mountain path, narrated this story by text: “The entrance hymn for the 6 p.m. Mass had started when I looked and saw something white below the cliff. At first I didn’t know what it was, so I looked away. When I looked again, the white figure was still there. I didn’t feel any fear, nor did I get goosebumps as I continued to stare at it. I clutched at Tita (Aunt) Maricar and asked if she, too, could see it. All of a sudden, the figure flapped its wings. That’s when my Tita said that we had seen an angel. We even saw the angel walk upwards. It disappeared when my Tita and I sat down.”

Maricar Ocdol sent this testimony also via text: “We were singing the entrance hymn when my niece Nikka asked me, ‘Tita, did you see that white thing below?’ One look and I knew… I thought it was just one of the statues like the Pieta. But when I looked again, I saw its wings open and spread, blending with the plants. Then it disappeared because it moved behind the tree. Nikka asked me: ‘Tita, what’s that?’ I told her—angel. ‘My, it disappeared so fast,’ Nikka said. Then I continued to participate in the Mass. Later, I looked down again and I saw the angel coming from behind the tree, flapping his wings. Then he blended again with the plants and disappeared.”

It rained off and on the entire night. At times there were strong gusts of wind. In these miserable conditions, no one seemed to want to leave and some even commented that this was “Fatima weather” referring to what happened in the last apparition at Fatima.

It poured during the 10 p.m. Mass. Afterward, as they prepared the board and sheet on which Emma would kneel, the rain slowed to a fine mist then stopped. By 11:45 p.m., Emma was on her knees, her face slowly moving from side to side like a baby seeking out its mother.

By this time, in full view on the video screens, the escarchas or glitters on her face and hands, began to rapidly multiply, so much so that even her veil began to sparkle.

Her face radiant, she tilted her head and broke out in a chant or what Christian communities refer to as “tongues.” Later she was to say that the mountain was filled with angels who were joyfully chanting as the Virgin appeared. And since it was Mama Mary’s birthday, she too, couldn’t help but greet her in song.

‘My Mother is here’

At this point, Raffy Raffy “>Villongco broke out sobbing, “My Mother is here, I can feel her presence!” Raffy, who works with the 101 Foundation, had come all the way from New Jersey, with his parents, a friend and Fr. John Marie Siilips, an American priest from the Society of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament in Steubenville, Ohio.

It was a lengthy apparition. Midway through, the reverential silence was broken by Frances Sablan Arriola from Saipan who cried out: “It’s dancing, can you see it?”

She then began to describe what she was seeing: “It’s moving, it’s getting bigger, now it’s smaller … Now it’s changing again!”

Brenda Padilla, in a text message, said: “I saw the clouds separate and I saw what I thought was the moon become big, then small. It was pulsating gracefully and twirled like it was dancing. Then it disappeared into the dark night when Emma finished conversing with Mama Mary. It was awesome!”

Quite a number of people saw the same thing. Those who were on the side and top of the mountain were rewarded for their constancy, for they had a better view. Vicki Belo, Hayden Kho and friends were seated on the mountain path and apparently had captured the moon on camera. Vicki was overheard exclaiming over what she had seen.

According to Marie Cancio, the moon didn’t look like the moon at all. She said: “What I saw looked like the moon becoming alive. It lost its shape and from its center burst rays of light against the dark sky.”

Her friend Marivic Ochoa had this to add: “Before the 6 p.m. Mass, I saw what I thought were fireworks behind the dark clouds. The lights were just gold and silver but they were beautiful.”

Others on the mountain like Lydia Sison and Rory Martin of the Center for Peace saw streams of what looked like silver dust floating against the trees and in the sky. Frances Salva and his wife Alice, both American citizens, were overwhelmed by the fragrance. The leaves of the trees looked like Christmas décor. They also saw a “different light … at least 15 feet long and maybe 6 to 8 inches wide.”

Joe Concepcion and Flor Villongco (Raffy’s mom) were adamant that they had seen something extraordinary. Joecon had been sitting inside the hut that sheltered the altar and stepped outside to get a better view of Emma. When the commotion began, he turned to look and instead of the moon, he clearly saw the very bright silhouette of Mama Mary against the sky. Flor, nearby, also saw the same apparition, adding however, that she couldn’t see the Virgin’s face.

A few minutes after the apparition ended, it began to rain again. As umbrellas went up, the faithful stayed in place, waiting to hear what message Mama Mary had given Emma.

Visibly exhausted, Emma apologized for the many escarchas that had fallen and were lost due to the weather (the glitters are always collected and distributed to the sick and needy).

Then she said Our Lady acknowledged the sacrifices of her children who suffered through long hours of bad weather just to be there. It made her happy, Emma said. Mother Mary also wanted them to know that just as rain would wash away grime and make all things new, so would their sacrifices and prayers help destroy evil and even renew the land.

“Mary” went on to say that she wanted them to stay simple, and not to judge who is right or wrong, or be taken in by who or what many people consider to be praiseworthy as

“all praise must be given to my Son, Jesus. Thank you for loving me, but I would prefer that you love my Son more.”

“The Philippines has a special place in my Son’s heart. My Son has opened blessings for the Philippines.”

“If you follow God’s will, His light will shine from the heavens. The years 2011-2015 will be filled with blessings and grace. Change will come to your country so loved by my Son.”

Question: when and where was the first recorded account of a “Mary apparition?” The only info I could find was Here, which gives the earliest date as Dec 1531. (Though a book advertised on the same page claims it was 40AD)

It would be interesting to know when, where, who, and the circumstances surrounding the first known apparition. Also to know what was happening in the world at the time historically.

The Deceiver chose a specific time and place for a reason…

(I was a little taken aback by the name ‘Emma’ in the story; i am still having flashbacks of last summer, Todd Bentley, Lakeland, and the “Angel Emma” )


22 comments on “Most recent Mary apparition

  1. >> (“I was a little taken aback by the name ‘EMMA’ in the story, i am still having flashbacks of last summer, Todd Bentley, Lakeland, and the ‘ANGEL EMMA’) <<

    My thoughts exactly as I was reading.

    Bentley's Emma is actually a demon, or a Buddhist angel in charge of one of their eight hells.


    Surely my sorrow at reading this atrocity isn't sending my imagination into crazy mode in wondering if this Emma is indeed one and the same??????? Pleeeaaaase tell me not. :o(
    Quite honestly NOTHING is surprising me anymore.

    • HA! This Emma is a person, a ‘prophet’ i think ..but when reading this it kind of sounds like she operates as a “channel”…like her presence is needed for the apparition to appear???

      is that what you got?

      It was just such a shock to see the name EMMA (once again) associated with still another case of false signs and wonders…its sort of freaky,..LOL!!!!

  2. Gold dust, angels, Emma…this MUST be God at work. Or so I would almost expect John Crowder and others like him to say (Crowder especially, because of his strong affinity for anything Catholic and mystic).

    According to Wikipedia (which some find more reliable than others do), these apparitions are alleged to have taken place before 1531 (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was formed in 1542, which is why apparitions before that time generally have not been formally approved by any Pope):

    [1] 39 AD: Our Lady of the Pillar (Mary appears to Saint James the Great)

    [2] 1061: Our Lady of Walsingham (Mary appears to a Saxon noblewoman in England)

    [3] 1208: Our Lady of the Rosary (Mary appears to Saint Dominic in France)

    [4] 1251: Our Lady of Mount Carmel (Mary appears to Saint Simon Stock in England)

    This information is here:

    Main page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition

    This article says that the Holy See has studied 295 reported apparitions, but has only “approved” 12 of them.

    Oooh, 12…that must be a confirmation that God is restoring the apostles today…LOL

    • Adam you’ve made me wonder if its possible Crowder might have actually been there! Recently i’ve been ignoring his newsletters,only because i was beginning to feel over-loaded on the crazies…maybe i should check out his website. LOL

      39 AD: Our Lady of the Pillar (Mary appears to Saint James the Great)

      I noticed it was referred to as “according to tradition”…also that this supposed apparition of Mary came while she was still living.

      Makes me wonder how many of the early ones, were based on hearsay being passed down?

      I have no doubt some apparitions have been real–real in the sense of being deception. Most if not all spiritual deceptions down through the years always seem to start up during a time when God’s people stray from the truth.

      And, if i remember correctly, (I read this in a paper on history and spiritual deception yrs ago) during seasons of uncertainty or dramatic ‘change’ historically.

      Have you ever read anything about the correlation?

      If the author is correct then now is a prime season for another huge deception/delusion to be introduced by satan, into the world. Or maybe to build on older ones which have taken root like the Mary apparitions..

      just thinking…

    • Yes, I believe Crowder said in one of his recent newsletters that he bilocated to the Philippines for a secret mystic adventure. That must have been it. No, I’m just kidding, but I wouldn’t be too surprised either.

      “over-loaded on the crazies”… I know the feeling!

      As for Mary still being alive in 39 AD, I thought about that too. Why would she need to appear to James in the form of an apparition when they could just sip coffee and chat in Jerusalem?

      I can’t think of any articles off-hand…about the correlation of deception coming during seasons of uncertainty or change…but that would quite possibly make sense. I did read yesterday from a Dispensationalist source about major events related to Israel taking place at the same time as “revivals” in America (birth of Israel and Voice of Healing in 1948, a Jewish war and [??] the Catholic Charismatic renewal in 1967, etc.). I wish I could remember where I saw that, but I remember thinking that those were indeed interesting correlations, but not in the sense that the author thought they were.

      On another note regarding this post, it was very interesting that Emma was chanting in tongues during her experience.

  3. Maitreya,Benjamin Creme and the UN are some where real close to this . I’d also check out this site for more insight on what their true agenda
    Then check out how Maitreya has showed up the same ways that the marry apparitions have around the world.
    Yup, signs and wounders????? Beastly…..

  4. more at
    photo no 5 – see the golddust – now if thats not real I don’t know what is…….

    • Jan, doesn’t that photo of gold dust look just (exactly) like the GD on people in those Patricia King–Crowder videos?

      It does! I’ve always believed some of these manifestations are “real”. Not all are shams or trickery on the part of people claiming them. And that should cause us the greater concern…

      I’ll tell you all something i hadn’t revealed here at the blog. Though there is a friend from another blog i confided in at the time.

      Do any of you recall the post put up last november about a song and angels singing?

      Go here: https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/singing-angel/

      As you’ll see it got a fair amount of responses… and not everyone agreed.

      During the time that post was active one night here at my computer, i picked something up from the desk and lying there was a feather… i kid you not, a white feather!

      now there is no way (or where in this house) that thing could have gotten there. I have foam pillows, nothing with feathers, etc…

      Now see, i could have taken that as a ‘sign’…one ‘sent from heaven’ to verify the angel singing audio was real..a real angel singing, etc…And that’s what many of us do! Accept things automatically as coming from God as a ‘sign’ or confirmation.

      Anyway, long story short, i kept it for a day or so, to show a sister in the Lord who was due to stop by, then tossed it away.

      I do believe satan can cause tangible ‘things’ to manifest. Signs and wonders, Gold dust, etc.. and they will be “real”…but they won’t be from God.

      I’m sure if i would have sent that feather to someone with knowledge to know, they would have told me it was a chicken feather! ahaha… or something similar.

      I don’t believe satan can create [from nothing[ so he uses what it already available to trick us. I recall reading that someone had some of the gold dust tested which showed up at a meeting–it turned out to be either normal gold glitter, or plastic (can’t recall which).

      anyway back to mary…

      I remember a post from a few months back in which i included a ‘prophecy’ or word which came from a Mary apparition back in 1992:

      Our Loving Mother’s Monthly Message to the United States
      December 13, 1992

      It was a beautiful Sunday. The crowd of pilgrims was as large as, if not larger than, the 23,000 to 25,000 pilgrims on October 13, 1992. The pilgrims came again to pray the 15 decades of the Rosary with the Blessed Mother. In the morning, Nancy was worried about the monthly apparition. Jesus said, “Why do you look worried? Do you not know who leads you? Do you not trust Me?” Nancy then saw the pictures of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary glow in light. Before the noontime apparition at the farm house, Nancy was praying before the crucifix in a room adjacent to the apparition room. Jesus appeared and said, ” Gold dust will fall from Heaven. Rosaries will turn golden color and hearts will be converted. I am healing My children. Go and believe.”

      This message was not shared with the pilgrims yet immediately following the apparition several pilgrims were testifying of seeing gold dust on their hands and showing rosaries that had turned to a golden color.


  5. My husband and I were very much into the “Marian apparitions” before we were born again. He did a short You Tube video on the topic. We were actually “evangelists for Mary.” Can you believe it! These apparitions are truly from the dark side and are very wicked.

    Here’s the link …

    • Cathy, thank you so much for posting Bill”s clip!!

      This is an excellent clip–he exposed the lies with the truth of God’s word. (Praise God!) I was actually disappointed when it ended.

      Those like you and Bill, who were once in the midst of this but were wonderfully set free, have so much first hand knowledge to offer now…isn’t it amazing how God has taken what the enemy intended for your harm, and is now using it for the good of the body?

      I pray God continues to use you both to open the eyes of the blind!

  6. I do remember the singing angel post and your story about the feather is very interesting. I am afraid my comment was rather tongue in cheek and a play on the word real.
    We have 3 options
    1. From God
    2. From Satan
    3. Natural occurrence
    I favour 2 or 3 – 1 – not because I do not doubt that God can do anything but rather that he has stated in his word how he reveals himself (scripture, prophets, ultimately through his Son). Satan is a deceiver who delights to shift focus from Jesus to signs and wonders, from Him to self obsession. No 3 is my favourite, however that does mean that I have to accept that there are some people who deliberately deceive in order to reach their own goals of either success or money.

    Speaking of strange things Catholic :

  7. sorry – if you google
    youtube pope has arachnid encounter in Czech republic
    just a bit of fun

  8. We have 3 options

    1. From God
    2. From Satan
    3. Natural occurrence


    While most fall into natural occurrences, i think some of the mary apparitions are real–real in they are demonically/satanically manufactured.

  9. It was year 2000 when I bought this beautiful “Fatima” in Lisbon, Portugal. Since then “Our Lady of Fatima” becomes much more closer to my heart. If I feel depress and whatever challenges occur to me I know she will always be there for me. She is our mother of all mothers.

  10. Arthur, please read this:

    “The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger” – Jeremiah 7:18

    The Catholic Church uses that same title, queen of heaven for Mary, mother of Jesus. Where do you think they got that term from?

    Is there any place in the bible Arthur, which claims Mary can give us peace–save–intercede for us? No Arthur, there isn’t.

    Jesus is the only mediator between God the Father and mankind. Only Jesus saves, and only Jesus can give us peace–the peace which passes understanding. And it is only Jesus who said, “I will never leave you or forsake you”

    Not Mary, Arthur.

    Young Mary was blessed by God to be the human vessel chosen, by which Jesus was to be born–but she was still just a human, just like us. And she was (also) born with original sin, so needed a Savior herself. Just like us Arthur. She had to be born again.

    We have no reason whatsoever to believe she did not eventually die, like any other mortal does. And today her soul/spirit (which is with God in heaven) awaits with all the other children of God in heaven, for resurrection day, when their souls/spirits will be reunited with their new new bodies.

    She is our mother of all mothers.

    There are 3…Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not 4.

    One last thing for you to think about.

    The Catholic church teaches the Assumption of Mary–that Mary did not die but that she ascended into heaven, like Jesus.

    read this;

    Scholars have long considered the Gospel of John to be one of the latest written texts in the New Testament. The reasons for the conclusion that the Gospel of John was written after the letters of Paul, the Synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), and many of the later letters, is based on a variety of evidences that when considered collectively suggest a post-90 AD composition.

    The date, post 90ad may be off…but if it is its not by much. All bible scholars agree it was written late–after the other 3 gospels and most likely after many/most of the the new testament books/letters.

    Now, knowing this, we read in John 3:13 :

    “no man has ascended into heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

    John wrote that around 90ad…how old would Mary have been then Arthur if she were still alive? 95-100?

    Its VERY unlikely she was still alive…she would have already died.

    BUT John is VERY clear in writing “NO man has ascended into heaven…..(except for Jesus)”

    Man means mankind…which would have included Mary. Which totally refutes the idea that Mary ascended into heaven and did not taste death. For John plainly states NO MAN…

    think about it Arthur…

  11. the gold on her face are from the gold leaf in the mantel of the statue of the virgin mary!

  12. Lastly, please stop insisting that Catholics are worshipping Mary. We do not worship her, but we give her the honor that is due her as the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. St. John the Baptist, even as a baby in the womb of Elizabeth leaped for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice. “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.” Even the unborn gave honor to Mary as she deserved. Why do you criticize as for also giving her such honor?

    As Mary said, in her magnificat, “For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” (ESV Lk. 1:48-49)

    It is only in the Catholic church where the Blessed Virgin Mary is honored from generation to generation.

    • Forerunner Commentary, Luke 1:41

      Mary’s cousin Elizabeth is inspired to recognize that Mary’s baby is not just an ordinary baby, and she calls both Mary and her unborn Son “blessed.” Blessed literally means “to speak well of.” It signifies celebrating with praises and invoking blessings upon a person. The New Testament uses it frequently, sometimes in relation to Christ, but often in relation to inanimate objects such as fish and loaves of bread. The Amplified Bible translates it as “favored of God.” Again, nothing in the wording indicates that Mary is worthy of worship.

      Mary is not the only woman to be given the title of “blessed” in the Bible. In the Song of Deborah, Jael—the woman who invited the fleeing Sisera into her tent, encouraged him to sleep, and then drove a tent peg through his skull—is accorded this same honor: “Most blessed among women is Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite; blessed is she among women in tents” (Judges 5:24). Here, she is lauded as “blessed”—even “most blessed”—but there is no record of a shrine dedicated to her or of anybody worshipping her. She is simply recognized with a very honorable mention for the part she played in carrying out God’s plan.

      The references to Mary in Luke 1 are the core scriptures that Catholic scholars use to try to prove that Mary is worthy of our worship. It is evident that the verses say little more than that Mary was given grace and favor by God, as we all have. They simply cannot be used as a starting point for establishing a doctrine of worship.

      Aside from the little that the Bible says about Mary, there are other significant biblical principles that directly contradict a doctrine of Mary-worship. We could examine a whole host of scriptures relating to human death and resurrection to show that Mary is in the same condition as the rest of the dead in Christ—awaiting the resurrection, without consciousness, and not in heaven (Psalm 146:3-4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Job 14:12; John 3:13; Acts 2:29-34; I Corinthians 15:12-55; see also Is Heaven the Reward of the Saved?). We could look at a vast array of scriptures that show that Mary-worship is indeed idolatry, because only God the Father and Jesus Christ are worthy of our worship (Exodus 34:14; Matthew 4:10). We could delve into the singular role that Jesus Christ plays as Mediator of the New Covenant—a role in which He does not need any help (Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). These are not difficult concepts. Nevertheless, there is a vital lesson to be learned from this obviously erroneous doctrine.

      The veneration of Mary, like many pagan practices, has its origin in the heathen religious system created by Nimrod and Semiramis, and more specifically, from the worship of the “Mother and Child.” Through the millennia, the symbol of the “Mother and Child” has been endlessly repeated; one can find evidence of Mother-and-Child worship in all of the nations in ancient times. Though her characteristics varied from culture to culture, the common element is that the Mother was the Queen of Heaven, and she bore fruit even though a virgin.

      In China, Semiramis became known as the “Holy Mother.” The Germans named her “Hertha.” The Scandinavians called her “Disa.” Among the Druids, the “Vigo-Paritura” was worshipped as the “Mother of God.” To the Greeks, she was “Aphrodite.” To the Romans she was known as “Venus,” and her son was “Jupiter.” The Canaanites, and sometimes even the Israelites, worshipped “Ashtoreth” (Judges 2:13; 10:6; I Samuel 7:3-4; 12:10; I Kings 11:5, 33; II Kings 23:13), who was also known as “the queen of heaven” (Jeremiah 7:18). In Ephesus, the Great Mother was known as “Diana.” T.W. Doane in his book Bible Myths sums it up this way: “Thus we see that the Virgin and child were worshipped in pagan times from China to Britain . . . and even in Mexico the ‘Mother and child’ were worshipped.”

      This false worship, having spread from Babylon to the various nations, finally became established at Rome and throughout the Roman Empire. James George Frazer in his The Golden Bough observes:

      The worship of the Great Mother . . . was very popular under the Roman Empire. Inscriptions prove that the [Mother and the Child] received divine honors . . . not only in Italy and especially at Rome, but also in the provinces, particularly in Africa, Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, and Bulgaria. (vol. 1, p. 356)

      One of the repeated patterns of the Roman church is syncretism, bringing pagan beliefs and practices into the church to keep certain groups happy. This is the same mechanism by which Christmas, Easter, Sunday-worship, and the pagan trinity-god were brought into the Roman church—and which most of mainstream Christianity has accepted without question. The church allowed the pagans within it to continue their practices—in this case, the worship of the Great Mother—only in a slightly different form and with a new name. Many pagans had been drawn to Christianity, but so strong in their mind was the adoration for the Mother-goddess, that they did not want to forsake her. Compromising church leaders saw that, if they could find some similarity in Christianity with the Mother-goddess worship of the pagans, they could increase their numbers by bringing many pagans into their fold. Of course, Mary fit the bill perfectly. So the pagans were allowed to continue their prayers and devotion to the Mother-goddess, but her name was changed to Mary. In this way, the pagan worship of the Mother was given the appearance of Christianity, and the course was set.

      Scripture cannot be used as a starting place for attempting to prove that Mary is worthy of worship. The true beginning for this practice lies with Semiramis and the Babylonian system begun by Nimrod. When the Catholic Encyclopedia presents as proof the historical fact that early Catholics venerated and worshipped Mary, it conveniently leaves out the fact that this adoration started in paganism and was shifted to the personage of the mother of Christ. Once the Roman Church adopted this practice, support had to be found for it, so it “interpreted” Scripture in a way that would lend credence to this practice. However, in these explanations it is apparent that Catholics start with a conclusion and then attempt to find support for it.

  13. being a former, or lapsed Catholic, i can understand the argument for both sides of the theological divide. for most Protestants, the traditions of the liturgical Orthodox faith expressions a bone of contention as their tradition teaches to avoid them. there are biblical precedents of course: Enoch & Elijah come to mind. if we simply use the logic that says only those recorded in scripture were ‘assumed’ into heaven, then the argument is narrowly defined. but then things not even mentioned in scripture that do occur cannot be construed as either support nor rejection of them. i would have granted leeway for the veneration of Mary as part of rich tradition up to the point it became ‘infallible’ teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. once it did this, the RCC became the sole authority for all Catholics on this issue which cannot be questioned. that is one problem i have with the authoritative posturing of the liturgical Orthodox faith expressions when they do not allow for disagreement on issues of faith & doctrine. if you question or withhold judgment, you are labled schismatic, Protestant, heretic, rebellious, etc. it is this doctrinal posturing & line drawing i eschew. there are similar Protestant traditions & faith expressions i also do not agree with. the associated doctrinal posturing just as distasteful to me. Catholic vs. Protestant rhetoric tiresome for one that has journeyed thru both expressions along the way. in the midst of all this historical debate i try to find Jesus as expressed thru the gospels & hold fast to this One Truth…

  14. most the late religions came from the catholic church but still they insist that they are the true church. some were established at 1900’s 1700’s 1500’s. they claim jesus established their religion through anyone. oh my…

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