29 Comments

Does Protesting Gay Marriage Advance the Gospel?


Something to think about…

quote,

Before you read this, if you aren’t familiar with me, you need to know that I am a Christian who struggles with homosexuality. The Lord pulled me out of the gay lifestyle a couple of years ago and has graciously granted me repentance every day since. I write on this subject as someone who understands the mindsets of both the gospel-rejecting, unrepentant gay person and also the regenerate, born again Christian. My goal in addressing this issue is to hopefully get a few people’s eyes fixed back on Jesus and the mission He has entrusted us with.

Homosexuality is a very complex and an often confusing subject, and most Christians really don’t have the slightest inclination on how to approach their admittedly gay friends. Most of us have some sort of idea how to help people like addicts or atheists, but when it comes to approaching a homosexual, we don’t even know where to start. Then all of a sudden something happens, like Obama’s proclaimed support of gay marriage yesterday, and everyone goes into a frenzy. My social media has been covered in comments on both sides of this issue. But is all the chatter really getting anyone anywhere?

Protesting gay marriage or gay parades does not advance the gospel in any way, shape or fashion. People picketing with their signs of “Homosexuality is an abomination!” or “Gays don’t go to heaven!” only communicates to the gay person that you believe their lifestyle is a sin. And this is true, the gay lifestyle is a sin and those who partake in it without ever turning away from it and to Jesus will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But what these people need more than our opposition is our answers.

Because of the constant flow from the secular world through media and other means, the minds of most of the population are flooded with worldly ideology about homosexuality. The media is shaping the minds of people from a very young age to believe that homosexuality is identical in goodness to heterosexual behavior. We, as believers in Christ and believers in the truth, need to not merely announce to the gay community that they are in sin, but also provide answers to the questions they ask. Much of the Christian community that has taken a stance against homosexuality has done so more within a political mindset than an eternal, gospel mindset. They want to stop gay marriage, forbid gays from adopting, etc.

But let’s be realistic, the government in America is not a Christian government. We may be founded upon gospel truths and morals, but the 21st century US government is not centered in (or) on Jesus nor does it strive to adhere to Biblical principals. A lot of people may disagree with me, but I believe that if a same sex couple wants to have the right to file their taxes together or be able to be in the hospital room with their partner before they die, we should give it to them. Does depriving them of these privileges show them the love of Jesus in any way? I do not think that it does.

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29 comments on “Does Protesting Gay Marriage Advance the Gospel?

  1. P.J., then are you in agreement with those who are voting to have marriage be defined as only between one man and one woman? Do you also agree that President Obama has made a stand that is anti-God’s revealed truth for us?

    God’s standard is clear and we must be clear in standing on His side. We must do this with love and grace, but to be wishy-washy and say that the government should recognize gay unions in any way is a humanistic way of trying to prove that we are really good guys who think God is a little unfair in saying that people who practice homosexuality will go to hell. If we wink to others about God’s requirements, we aren’t doing them any favor, and we are setting ourselves up as judges of God’s will. It is arrogant to speak other than what God says about such things. “A trumpet must give a clear sound”–our love and adherence to God must be clear, and we must love others and speak clear truth to them.

    • P.J., then are you in agreement with those who are voting to have marriage be defined as only between one man and one woman?

      Frankly Jeremy, if it was on the ballot here in KY i wouldn’t be voting on it period. What the government (which is a secular entity) sanctions (or any politician personally believes) about the issue of marriage is of no interest to me.

      God’s standard is clear and we must be clear in standing on His side.

      By what? Voting against same-sex marriage and then making it clear to anyone who will listen that “im standing on God’s side”?

      If you want to stand with God, follow the command of our Lord Jesus and “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (mark 16). For it is THE GOSPEL (not politics and/or voting) which brings about change. It is God’s desire that we who have His Spirit “stand” with Him in seeing all be saved:

      I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. (1 tim.2)

  2. In the case of issues like Gay Marriage, I have in the past, and I will in the future vote my conscience, which means of course that if I had to vote on the issue, I would vote against Gay Marriage. But that does not mean that I would *necessarily* vote against a politician who supports Gay Marriage anymore than I would necessarily vote against a politician who immorally supports laws that protect Wall Street thieves. That is because I absolutely do not believe that one issue in the political realm should trump all the rest. I find it extremely odd that issues like abortion and gay marriage are extremely distressing to so many “Christians” but other sins like gluttony are not only ignored, they are routinely practiced. In my opinion, NONE of these sins which are specifically identified in the scriptures should be tolerated in the church, and the church should keep its collective nose out of the business of the world. The people who belong to the world LIVE in sin because they know no other way. No amount of law is going to change that and targeting certain sins with laws and ignoring others is an even worse strategy. For example, I find it very weird that when it comes to sexual morality, the same people who are gung ho to constrain it with laws are of a completely different opinion when it comes to economic morality. In the case of economics, they cry out that you can’t legislate morality, you have to let the free market sort things out. They rationalize everything to suit their private agenda and fit their own moral orientation. Everything revolves around making their sins insignificant even as they magnify the sins of others to the point that they would seem to threaten “our culture” AND “the church” as though the sinners all around us had some power greater than God to enable them to destroy the church and the sanctity of marriage. And, on the other side of the coin, God is NOT mocked. Those who think they have a pass just because Gay Marriage (or abortion for that matter) has become legal, will still have to face God’s judgement on the issue and it will be THEY who are ultimately held accountable before God and not the Christians who “sin” by voting for someone who supports immorality (as if there are ANY politicians out there who do not support some sort of immorality these days.

    • George, a BIG AMEN to everything you said!🙂

      In my opinion, NONE of these sins which are specifically identified in the scriptures should be tolerated in the church, and the church should keep its collective nose out of the business of the world. The people who belong to the world LIVE in sin because they know no other way. No amount of law is going to change that….

      Exactly.

    • I’m amazed that Christians can equate abortion with greed. Greed is a sin of the heart which, if acted upon in stealing, embezzling, etc., has laws that will usually act upon it. Abortion in most cases is full-blown sin,begun in selfishness or fear or greed, acted upon in murder, and sanctioned by law. This is the only murder that our society has decided should not only not be prosecuted, but should be protected!

      And if you think that God views all sins equally, that is not correct. Jesus said that anyone who offends “one of these little ones,” it is better that a millstone be hung on his neck and he be drowned than that he face God’s judgment. Think of all the “little ones” murdered that God will specially recompense in the judgment.

      Then as to us keeping our noses out of the world’s business: my goodness! This does not seem like the love of God. So, we are to stand aside and watch people going to hell and wish them God’s speed to get there? There have been many Christians who influenced the world for good, even in the political realm. Wilberforce of England, an evangelical Christian and member of Parliament, was largely responsible for getting slavery abolished throughout the British Empire. Asa Mahan, Oberlin College president and close friend of Charles Finney, was in correspondence with President Lincoln, urging him to come out against slavery. After one particular letter in which Mr. Mahan laid out Biblical opposition to it, Pres. Lincoln wrote back and said he was now convinced and would come out against slavery. Within the month, I believe, he gave the Emancipation Proclamation.

      It seems that according to what you wrote, these Christians should have kept their noses out of the issue of slavery. Would it have been better that thousands of people were oppressed in slavery, even now?

      P.J., I’m not sure what you meant that I may have been mixed up about civil unions. Can you explain why you think I was confused?

    • And if you think that God views all sins equally, that is not correct. Jesus said that anyone who offends “one of these little ones,” it is better that a millstone be hung on his neck and he be drowned than that he face God’s judgment. Think of all the “little ones” murdered that God will specially recompense in the judgment.

      Jeremy the scripture you’re referring to is found in Mark 9:

      38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. 41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

      Just wanted to point out that the little ones Jesus was referring to were believers.

      He threatens those that offend his little ones, that wilfully are the occasion of sin or trouble to them, Mark 9:42. Whosoever shall grieve any true Christians, though they be of the weakest, shall oppose their entrance into the ways of God, or discourage and obstruct their progress in those ways, shall either restrain them from doing good, or draw them in to commit sin, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea: his punishment will be very great, and the death and ruin of his soul more terrible than such a death and ruin of his body would be. (See Matthew 18:6.) Matthew Henry Commentary

      All sin leads to death and all sin can be forgiven, so in that sense they are equal. The only sin mentioned which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

      “Then there was brought to Him a demon-possessed man who was blind and dumb, and He healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. 23And all the multitudes were amazed, and began to say, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons.” 25And knowing their thoughts He said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26″And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27″And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28″But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29″Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30″He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31″Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32″And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,” (Matthew 12:22-32)

      Then as to us keeping our noses out of the world’s business: my goodness! This does not seem like the love of God. So, we are to stand aside and watch people going to hell and wish them God’s speed to get there?

      Jeremy no one said that we should stand aside and watch the lost enter hell. But please, explain to me how railing against, voting against or protesting gay marriage is helping save anyone?

      P.J., I’m not sure what you meant that I may have been mixed up about civil unions.

      Civil unions are,

      “legal contracts between partners that are recognized by a state or government as conferring all or some of the legal rights and responsibilities conferred by marriage.”

      Biblically,

      “scripture is clear about marriage being a holy and divinely established covenant. It is a holy union blessed by God.”

    • “Greed is a sin of the heart which, if acted upon in stealing, embezzling, etc., has laws that will usually act upon it.”

      How I ever wish this were true. The reality is that, just as one illustration among many, the uncollected taxes in this country run in the billions annually. In MOST cases, these are people who owe large sums and could well afford to pay, but they don’t and they rarely get prosecuted. And another case, medicare fraud. It is public record that most medicare fraud artists NEVER get caught and NEVER get prosecuted. But there is absolutely zero outrage among Christians over these sorts of issues. Look at all the homes being foreclosed using illegal practices. Concern among Christians? Zero. One could go on and on. Thievery is rampant in America these days and I would wager that many in the church are participating in it. Just look at the number of financial scandals that go by involving churches.

      “Abortion in most cases is full-blown sin,begun in selfishness or fear or greed, acted upon in murder, and sanctioned by law. This is the only murder that our society has decided should not only not be prosecuted, but should be protected!”

      In my own community young children die all the time at the hands of negligent parents and those parents are seldom prosecuted for murder. A member of my immediate family does foster care and the stories I hear are heart breaking. How much does this concern the church? Zero. The church is so fixated on abortion that NOTHING else matters. That is the irrationality of the whole thing. The reality is that unpunished murders are going on all around us, but they are invisible. Abortion is VERY visible and therefore becomes a lighting rod for passion.

      “Then as to us keeping our noses out of the world’s business: my goodness! This does not seem like the love of God.”

      The role of the church is to preach the gospel. NOTHING ELSE. Show me ANYWHERE in the New Testament where the apostles or believers were busy promoting social reform. Show me anywhere in the New Testament where they were NOT keeping their noses out of the world’s business. AND NOTE that I do not mean that YOU shouldn’t be an advocate for justice and righteousness in the world. I simply mean that it shouldn’t be allowed to become a part of your church life. I have absolutely no issue with people supporting and being involved in “pro-life” organizations. However, I DO have major problems with that activity being identified with the church because it is NOT what the church is called to. It is a diversion that is distracting the church and its members from its real mission which is to proclaim the gospel, and that distraction is actually resulting in more abortions and more support for things like Gay Marriage as the church fails to do what the Scripture clearly teaches that it SHOULD BE DOING.

      The problems here are:

      1) The fixation on sin INSTEAD of on Christ and the Gospel of Salvation.

      2) The fixation on particular sins instead of acknowledging that the world is drowning in every type of sin identified by the scriptures and that ONLY the life saving Gospel of Christ can deliver from those sins, not more laws. There are way too many laws already and very little enforcement.

      3) The fact that too many Christians wear their conciences on their sleeves. If Christians would start to feel guilt about their OWN sins instead of feeling “guilt” over not policing the sins of others successfully, life would become a lot easier and the world a lot better place.

      4) The failure to differentiate between the civil realm and the spiritual realm. In the spiritual realm, all that matters is ones standing before God and that issue has to be the ONE passion of the church. In the civil realm there is a responsibility on the part of the Christian AS AN INDIVIDUAL to be an advocate for righteousness. But this is NOT something we should somehow confuse and entangle with the Gospel or with the life of the Church. Entangling the Church in politics can only bring corruption and division in the Church. So its NOT that we don’t care about issues such as Gay Marriage and Abortion, its that the WAY that these issues are being dealt with are dangerous and unbiblical. And the REASON that many Christians might seem unconcerned about these issues is NOT because they approve of either Gay Marriage OR Abortion, but rather that they find that for them the best way to STOP these practices is to preach the Gospel to the end of the earth as the Scripture teaches us. On the other hand if you feel called to be “a prophetic voice” in terms of advocating for righteousness in the civil realm, we will not criticize you for that. But PLEASE, don’t entangle it with the Church, who’s ONE mission is to preach the Gospel in all the world until Jesus comes.

    • George, the 4 problems you pointed out are so right-on target i had to re-post them!

      quote…

      1) The fixation on sin INSTEAD of on Christ and the Gospel of Salvation.

      2) The fixation on particular sins instead of acknowledging that the world is drowning in every type of sin identified by the scriptures and that ONLY the life saving Gospel of Christ can deliver from those sins, not more laws. There are way too many laws already and very little enforcement.

      3) The fact that too many Christians wear their conciences on their sleeves. If Christians would start to feel guilt about their OWN sins instead of feeling “guilt” over not policing the sins of others successfully, life would become a lot easier and the world a lot better place.

      4) The failure to differentiate between the civil realm and the spiritual realm. In the spiritual realm, all that matters is ones standing before God and that issue has to be the ONE passion of the church. In the civil realm there is a responsibility on the part of the Christian AS AN INDIVIDUAL to be an advocate for righteousness. But this is NOT something we should somehow confuse and entangle with the Gospel or with the life of the Church. Entangling the Church in politics can only bring corruption and division in the Church. So its NOT that we don’t care about issues such as Gay Marriage and Abortion, its that the WAY that these issues are being dealt with are dangerous and unbiblical. And the REASON that many Christians might seem unconcerned about these issues is NOT because they approve of either Gay Marriage OR Abortion, but rather that they find that for them the best way to STOP these practices is to preach the Gospel to the end of the earth as the Scripture teaches us. On the other hand if you feel called to be “a prophetic voice” in terms of advocating for righteousness in the civil realm, we will not criticize you for that. But PLEASE, don’t entangle it with the Church, who’s ONE mission is to preach the Gospel in all the world until Jesus comes.

  3. No, not just by voting, though that can help. Remember the often-quoted example of the church in 1930’s Germany who thought it wasn’t their place to involve themselves in politics.

    I said we need to be clear in standing on God’s side because you haven’t been clear with what you believe about gay marriage. You come out strongly on some things you believe, so it is surprising that you can’t make a simple, clear statement on this, or say that President Obama is wrong on his newly stated position.

    One last time: can you admit that gay marriage is against God, at least?

    • Jeremy i think you are confusing civil unions and what God recognizes as marriage.

    • Jeremy, If it makes you feel any better, I think he is wrong. Whether it will cost him his position remains to be seen. But, I don’t think he is any more wrong then any other politician serving in office. Almost all (like 99%) of politicians take political positions that don’t line up with what the Bible teaches. And there has NEVER been a government on the face of the earth that has followed the scriptures scrupulously, INCLUDING the physical nation of Israel. ONLY those who make up the church are innocent before God, and that ONLY by the blood of Christ, NOT by any amount of “obedience” or “godliness” (ie works). Approving Gay Marriage is not something I would have done if I were president and I really doubt that it is something that pj would have done. But these are NOT the kind of sins that people are condemned to hell over. There is ONLY ONE sin that brings eternal damnation, that being a rejection of Jesus Christ and His redeeming sacrifice. And I think to compare the situation to that of Germany in the 30’s is a tremendous stretch. Many make the same mistake in trying to make a similar comparison with President Bush and the Patriot Act. When the government of the United States starts gassing people based on their ethnicity or begins a mass attack against our Constitutional freedoms, I WILL take whatever action I can, but NOT as a Christian, rather as a citizen. The role of a Christian is emphatically to bring PEOPLE to salvation, not NATIONS. ALL the nations of the earth are under an enduring curse and they will all be burned up when the Lord returns. ONLY ONE nation will survive, and that is the Israel of God, the Church. And that is the ONLY nation we should be worrying about keeping pure and holy.

  4. “What the government (which is a secular entity) sanctions (or any politician personally believes) about the issue of marriage is of no interest to me.”

    Amen & Amen!

  5. I think there are a number of issues to be considered here. According to the dictates of the scripture gay marriage is wrong period. Now should we be using the government to necessarily enforce our beliefs? I think we are in a period in which the impact of the believing church has dwindled in the society and instead of spending our energy to advance the gospel we seek to use the instrument of government to do it. The arm of flesh will always fail! What about banning divorce/adultery? The bible is against that too. The christians that protest need to understand the nature of man as the bible as explained to us. The unredeemed is rebellious against God laws. Our pastors and teachers should stick with teaching the whole counsel of God.

    • I agree.

      Those who attempt to actively force the unregenerate to live by the Word of God are looking to create a “Heaven on earth”. And it is never going to happen.

  6. Mr. Mitchell, you said that when the United States government begins gassing people based on their ethnicity, you WILL take action. Because the genocide is largely quiet, we are not stirred by the approximately 50,000,000 children who have been aborted since 1973. Or maybe because they are not of only one traditionally oppressed minority ethnic group, we aren’t stirred.

    According to this site, there were 20,943,000 people murdered by Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945.
    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.

    We have surpassed Nazi Germany in the murder of an innocent population group. More than double. It is time for you, and for us all, to take action, as we can. Why not do it as Christians? Can we leave that identity at the door as we walk out into the world?

    • “Genocide is defined as “the deliberate AND SYSTEMATIC destruction, in whole or in part, of an ETHNIC, RACIAL, RELIGIOUS, or NATIONAL group”,[1] though what constitutes enough of a “part” to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.” – Wikipedia

      You can not change definitions to suit your agenda. You did the same thing with the “little ones” passage from scripture by twisting the definition to suit your purposes. And as I recall, that passage refers to misguiding “little ones” and not to “murdering” them. Here you are twisting the meaning of genocide to apply it to the actions of individuals. The government does not FORCE anyone to have an abortion. They are done voluntarily, electively, by the misguided choice of individuals and their doctors, NOT by a government sanctioned PROGRAM, which is what it takes to fit the definition of genocide as the term was intended to be defined by those who invented it. Should the widespread killing of Gays around the world be labelled as genocide? It certainly would be under your twisted definition, but I don’t think it qualifies any more than abortion qualifies. Additionally, the term “genocide” does not even appear in the scripture, so you are emotionally using a very secular definition in an attempt to fan spiritual passions. The bottom line is that our government is NOT killing babies, individuals are and individuals have been murdering since Cain and just as no amount of law could stop Cain, neither can it stop determined individuals. And most murderers are back out on the streets these days after a short time of incarceration and more times than you would imagine they are never incarcerated, either because they don’t get caught or because when they do, their crime can not be adequately proved to bring a conviction.

  7. It was a liberal, patriotic, culturally assimilated sacralist “christian church” in Germany that believed it was their christian duty to help “save the country” after WWI that was easily seduced into complicity with Nazism–not the Two-Kingdom christians who rejected sacralism and believed they were to be separate from and not using the means of this world.

    I’m tired of the modern myth that passive non-politcally involved church people allowed Hitler to rise–it was precisely because culturally churched people were very politically active–active in support of Hitler because he was percieved as socially conservative and going to return Germany to former glory.

    Learn about christendom (constantinianism) and the magisterial reformers’ seeds of anti-semitism and
    how popular churchianity in Germany allowed and promoted Hitler to power.
    Victoria

    • Victoria, God bless you. What you’ve said is correct.

      Only recently i was reading about the political atmosphere which pervaded pre-WW2 Germany. A broken economy, an exaggerated sense of patriotism, and imperialist ambitions played into the hands of Nazism (the German Nationalist party). And both Protestant and Catholic Churches supported Hitler.

      A few interesting photos

      It was a liberal, patriotic, culturally assimilated sacralist “christian church” in Germany that believed it was their christian duty to help “save the country” after WWI

      The German church’s belief that they could “save the country” through nationalism and patriotism was led by the same “spirit” operating in many of today’s American church’s who rally around the cry of “taking back the country”

      One thing i’ve noticed; if it was pre-ww2 Germany or the “take back America” crowd today, there has to be acknowledged enemies. It’s imperative to these groups to have ‘boogy-men’ in order to mobilize passion from the masses for their cause. Demonization of specific groups (Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, liberals, etc. etc.) led to horrors unspeakable within Nazi Germany. It frightens me for i see today, my own nation echoing many of the same sentiments heard in the Germany of 1933. And many Christian brethren are in it up to their necks.

  8. Reading these comments has been interesting. So many things were said, some which i can agree with and others which i cant. (which really doesnt matter…)
    Are ‘WE’ missing the point?? Are the protesters etc against gay marriage/abortion and other things that they protest in the name of Jesus missing the point?? How can we claim to be Christian, believers that Jesus came to save EVERYONE, and yet not tell people about that amazing love that can come through it!
    We will achieve nothing by trying to force the world to live by the standards that the bible points out to us (in an effort to be christ like) when they dont know why we are!!!! We must tell people of the LOVE of jesus and the peace/joy/comfort that can only come though him, and when they have heard of this then, and only then can GOD change their hearts! and then at some point may they feel the same way that we do about some of the issues being thrown around at the present!
    If all that people see is the ‘church’ promoting hate etc then i am not at all surprised that they dont want anything to do with christians!

    We cannot retreat, but we can reload! Reload with a heart for wanting all people to experience the unfathomable joy (i know i get) from being in relationship with Jesus, to tell the people so they can see for themselves!! because to expect the world to see what we see without knowing Jesus is not going to work!!

    Same things are happening in Australia at the moment, and we have compulsory voting so if it goes to a vote, we have to pick a side! and just like everybody else i am entitled to vote either way, thats why we are given the choice! but will my vote help my relationship with Jesus or hinder it?? and does anyone really need to know which way i am voting?! no, possibly they are just looking for an argument or some justification for where they stand on the issues!

    Take it or leave it, just some thoughts (from a Christian struggling with homosexuality and being torn between the world and the life that Jesus offers me!!)

    Caity

    • We will achieve nothing by trying to force the world to live by the standards that the bible points out to us (in an effort to be christ like) when they dont know why we are!!!! We must tell people of the LOVE of jesus and the peace/joy/comfort that can only come though him, and when they have heard of this then, and only then can GOD change their hearts! and then at some point may they feel the same way that we do about some of the issues being thrown around at the present!

      Exactly.

      We cannot retreat, but we can reload! Reload with a heart for wanting all people to experience the unfathomable joy (i know i get) from being in relationship with Jesus, to tell the people so they can see for themselves!! because to expect the world to see what we see without knowing Jesus is not going to work!!

      Amen!🙂

      Caity, thank you for your testimony. “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony”

  9. Re: the church in Nazi Germany. My point was that the true believers, for the most part, did not stand in opposition to Nazism, either within politics or separate from it. A good part of the church, whether they were real believers or not, went along with the Nazis, partly from wrong doctrinal views. From what I have read, part of the problem was the Calvinistic Lutheran beliefs which are rather fatalistic. The government is ordained by God, and we should submit to the government–scriptural stances–are taken too far when there’s the view that only certain people are predestined to heaven. All others are not important, then. The Jews, who killed Jesus, were mostly viewed as not chosen or predestined, and the pogroms against them were seen as God’s judgment being meted out by the current ordained government. Perhaps the problem then was more that the existing church had such mixed up doctrine that caused them to not even understand that things were wrong, and so they went along with the government.

    If there were those who saw that the Nazi regime was acting evilly, and they thought they should remain separate and not do anything, either, that was bad, too. I am aware of some who spoke out against the evils, but they were few. Some of them made efforts to influence Hitler and the government, while they could. I believe one of them, Dietrich Bonhoffer maybe?, became so involved that he became part of a plot to kill Hitler or one of his top aides. I believe that was wrong involvement, but trying to influence evil policies through appeals, voting, letters, and any other similar means seems right.

    Mr. Mitchell, you ask me to show you in the New Testament where they weren’t keeping their noses out of the world’s business. Of course, their world was prisoner to the Roman Empire. I don’t know how many early Christians in Rome could vote, but I assume that, for the most part, what the Caesar wanted overrode council or senate votes, anyway, so the churches didn’t have to work through the issues we do about whether we should vote or try to influence what laws are passed.

    Local politics for Christians may have presented voting opportunities, I don’t see anything clear about this in a quick look at the internet. Paul appealed to Rome, citing his citizenship rights, to be saved from his persecutors. I remember a follower of the Lord’s who was part of Caesar’s household, referred to as currently a member at the time of a greeting to the person. Jesus said to render to Caesar what is his, and to God what is His.

    From these references, I don’t believe there was a proscription against political involvement, nor a requirement for it, though they didn’t have such opportunities to be involved in their government as are available for us. It seems that the issue is to be led by the Spirit and to live godly in this world, doing all we do to the Lord.

    What I don’t understand is the reluctance to come out strongly about issues that are definitely gross affronts to God, such as the governmental sanctions of abortion and attempts to sanction gay marriage. The arguments are quickly raised: What about all the greed in the world? What about the fact that people cheat the government and the government doesn’t prosecute all of them? What about the fact that the government doesn’t enforce laws that exist to curb theft, murder, corruption, etc? I don’t see that these things preclude us from trying to stop laws being passed to make what is evil be good. This, again, is a difference. There ARE tax laws, laws against stealing, laws trying to curb corruption, etc. Of course these need to be enforced or replaced by better methods of dealing with these problems. (For example, do we want to double the IRS agents to catch tax frauds, or perhaps change the method of collecting taxes to purely a sales tax on products purchased, or something?) We, as Christians, can help those around us who are poor, need housing, have had something stolen from them, and so on. We can do what the government cannot or won’t do. But we can’t bring back the aborted babies.

    From what you have written, Mr. Mitchell, I take it that you do not criticize those Christians who believe they should be doing what they can, as led by God, to influence governmental policies for what is righteous. Unfortunately, on this site, I see so much ranting against the religious right, both churches and individuals, that your uncritical outlook is not shared by P.J. or some of those who seem to agree over and over with the articles. I assume that you, at least, neither support or oppose any in the current or past administrations. Or do you do so under a secular flag, and switch to a Christian flag when you say Christian groups should not be involved with politics?

    I don’t care if someone is apolitical because of conscience, but to say that government sanctioned murder of babies is equal to not having enough agents to prosecute all the tax cheats, and so it is wrong to take a stand against abortion–this is just ludicrous, and is a denial of conscience. A Christian may not get involved in politics, but to call evil good is not a political issue. It is against the gospel. This is what is wrong with not being able to strongly oppose a governmental approval of abortion and of gay unions.

    I won’t be able to write any more due to jobs I’m working.

    • From what you have written, Mr. Mitchell, I take it that you do not criticize those Christians who believe they should be doing what they can, as led by God, to influence governmental policies for what is righteous. Unfortunately, on this site, I see so much ranting against the religious right, both churches and individuals, that your uncritical outlook is not shared by P.J. or some of those who seem to agree over and over with the articles.

      If im understanding you, you’re absolutely correct: I DO “rant” about the religious-right. In my opinion they have inflicted great harm to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And continue to do so.

      They have “shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces’. Most of the leaders within the religious-right movement have not themselves “entered, nor will they let those enter who are trying to.” (matthew 23)

    • I do NOT criticize Christians at all in this regard AS LONG as they do it as CITIZENS and do not MISUSE the Bible as a club to beat on the unbelievers. It is that simple. The problem with the religious right is that most of them, at least, do EXACTLY THAT. And that misrepresents BOTH the Church AND the Bible and causes confusion and bitterness among those being attacked. The ONE message of the Bible for the unsaved is the Good News that ALL their moral sins have been forgiven and only ONE further step is necessary for them to obtain fellowship with God. And that ONE step is opening their heart to the Son of God. NOTHING ELSE. At that point He will deal with all the other issues in their lives. On the other hand God has given us the Law as a witness to show us our need for Him. But that can only really be effective once we are saved. For the unsaved, the Law ONLY speaks condemnation and condemnation is NOT the message of the Gospel.

      And NO ONE around here is calling evil good. We are, in fact, calling it ALL BAD. You are the one who is trying to white wash certain evils as being “better” than others or “less” evil than others.

      You’ve got it right. I neither oppose nor support any government administrations of this world. I DO voice support or opposition to PARTICULAR policies of those administrations and, in fact, stated right here that I do NOT support the President in his Gay Marriage position. However, I take that position as a citizen, not as a Christian. As a Christian, my ONLY concern is that the Gospel be proclaimed in power without being undermined by non-Christian morality religion that is just as popular these days among the cults as it is among so many “Christians”. Jesus Christ did not come to save the world with morality religion, he come to give His life that salvation might be a free gift and NOT something earned by “being good” and “obeying the moral law”.

  10. Sorry–I was away and then came back and posted, not realizing I hadn’t finished my post.

    I would be happy to try to respond to whatever you all may answer, but I won’t be able to quickly because of my work schedule.

    Jesus is our Lord, and I send you all love in the fellowship we have in Him!

    • Jesus is our Lord, and I send you all love in the fellowship we have in Him!

      Amen! Thank you.

      “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

  11. Mr. Mitchell, there are many definitions of genocide. Here are several from Wikipedia:
    “Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings; such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind, … and is contrary to moral law and to the spirit and aims of the United Nations. …
    The General Assembly, therefore, affirms that genocide is a crime under international law … whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds …[9]”

    “In short, given the problems which arise from restrictions, we define genocide as the destruction of a group by purposive action. This allows the role of intentional action to be explored, different subtypes of genocide to be compared, and the impact of different factors on genocide to be examined empirically. (“Genocide and Social Conflict: A Partial Theory and Comparison”, p. 248)[23]”

    “Genocide is sustained purposeful action by a perpetrator to physically destroy a collectivity directly or indirectly, through interdiction of the biological and social reproduction of group members, sustained regardless of the surrender or lack of threat offered by the victim. (Genocide: A Sociological Perspective, 1993/1990)[21][24]”

    The killing of babies because they are inconvenient or unwanted could fall into these definitions. They don’t necessarily have to all be in the same ethnic group.

    Abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court and has been upheld by presidents and legislatures, despite the request of people to put abortion to a vote or to pass an amendment. Abortion for any reason would not have passed a vote for many years, but the government did not allow such a vote. Even now, some states would not go along with abortion as now practiced, if they were allowed to choose for their own states, but they are not given the chance. So, the government bears responsibility for making abortion for any cause legal.

    From these posts, I can see that there is so much on which I am at a polar opposite to how most of you view things. I don’t fit in here, and there is probably nothing to be gained by trying to continue to discuss anything. I wish you all well,

  12. Wikipedia has a lot of definitions of genocide.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions

    Here are three of the definitions:
    Genocide is sustained purposeful action by a perpetrator to physically destroy a collectivity directly or indirectly, through interdiction of the biological and social reproduction of group members, sustained regardless of the surrender or lack of threat offered by the victim. (Genocide: A Sociological Perspective, 1993/1990)[21][24]

    Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings; such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind, … and is contrary to moral law and to the spirit and aims of the United Nations. …
    The General Assembly, therefore, affirms that genocide is a crime under international law … whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds …[9] UN General Assembly Resolution 96, 1946

    Genocide is the deliberate destruction of physical life of individual human beings by reason of their membership of any human collectivity as such. (The Crime of State, Volume 2, Leiden, 1959, p. 125.)[10][11]

    The “collectivity” being systematically destroyed in genocide is an undesirable group, one that has been determined don’t deserve to live because they are so undesirable. In the case of abortion, the undesirable group are undesirable because they are inconvenient, for the largest majority of abortions. Genocide does seem to be an appropriate term for almost 40 years of programmatic elimination of victims who did no harm to their killers.

    As to acting as a citizen in some instances, and as a Christian elsewhere–? I can’t even begin to grasp how a Christian could compartmentalize their Christianity into a certain area of action. I AM a Christian. I am a citizen, a woman, 58 years old, brunette. I can deny my citizenship, have a sex-change operation, get two years older, and dye my hair and then I am no longer any of those things. But I can not NOT be a Christian, as long as I don’t deny the Lord.

    In fact, we are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and put off the old man. If anything, we are to be more and more acting only and always as Christians, and less and less as just a citizen, or just a man or woman.

    I agree that we are not to beat others over the head with the Bible. But I don’t think this means that churches are to not act together to do what they can to prevent gay marriage or gay civil unions becoming law, or to try to push back abortion for any reason as law. This is the position that you seem to think is wrong to take.

    If a fellowship group or large church works to prevent laws sanctioning gay marriage/civil unions, saying it is wrong, this isn’t hateful. It is truth. God’s will is not hateful. Telling people what we believe that is very much a part of God’s will in His Word isn’t hateful. If it is done in a hateful way–screaming, using hateful language, etc.–that is wrong. But saying that gay marriage is wrong and working to not allow it is not hateful. (Also, the gospel begins with “Repent, ….”)

    I don’t know if the objection to such church activity is because churches are trying to impose their values on society, but this isn’t the only reason for acting. It is enough of a reason, if God says one action is acceptable and another is totally wrong and ends in damnation, if not repented. But, for the sake of our own families we can stand for and work for things that keep society a little more stable and moral. Christians have a citizenship right to do that, and a godly obligation to do things that will protect and nurture our families and friends, if you think we should only act out of a narrow interest like this.

    I probably won’t post here anymore. I have such an outside view that I don’t think there will be much reason to continue trying to discuss things. Probably too much of a gap to be bridged, and there’s no point in talking only as adversaries.

    May God lead us all into greater knowledge of Him, something we all agree upon.

    Jeremy

  13. If we take a close look into what Jesus did and how he modeled what we should do, is that he used ‘Love’ to save the world and save us from sin. Therefore as Christians we should be more concerned in advancing the kingdom, and building God’s kingdom than we are in sending out negative solutions to a problem that is best healed by what Jesus did on the cross for us. If a person accepts what Jesus has done for him, and then begins to understand God’s love for them, they will be a new creation and he will automatically turn from his sinful ways. He will then have the Holy Spirit planted within his human body and the holy spirit who is the helper will lead him into all truth, and righteousness changing his very nature, that he no longer wants to live the life he was living before he found Jesus. It is more important for us to tell the world what Jesus did for us, than to send out judgement by putting labels on peoples sinful ways. We all are sinners, and all sin is equal it does not matter what the sin is.
    God has sent his son to save us from sin and death. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish but have everlasting life

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