16 Comments

Inside the mind of a Zionist Christian


I see this type of wrong-thinking every day. Wanted to share just one typical comment; this one happens to have been posted at Charisma.

The Jews are God’s chosen people, this does not mean they get to heaven via a backdoor as there is no other name (than Jesus) by which man can be saved. However, this does not negate the fact that the Jews are a special people to God, much more so that the Americans, British, Russians or Thais. (underlining mine)

You can view the entire thread (and topic) HERE

16 comments on “Inside the mind of a Zionist Christian

  1. Funny how they keep using the Old Testament to back them up for proof? PJMiller, I’ve been working on my new project which is about this debate. I will post it on my blog and on here as well when I complete it. So for now, I’ll leave it at that.

    • Looking forward to read it aagrove!

      This is part of the last day apostasy, in my opinion. And it’s growing like wildfire. I read stuff (like the above statement) every day at Christian websites and Christian discussion boards. If you try to point out how unbiblical these type of statements/beliefs are, be prepared to be attacked…for you most certainly will be. It doesn’t matter how many scriptures you point to in order to disprove it, these folks will ignore them and continue to claim otherwise. It’s as though they are supernaturally blind.

    • That’s exactly what happens, aagrove9. Even the Old Testament, though, often doesn’t say what many Zionist Christians insist that it says. I suspect that many from this camp are disappointed in the New Testament, because it doesn’t make the case for Zionism that they wish it made. As far as I can recall at the moment, they only point to three NT passages to back their ideas: Romans 9:4-5, Romans 11, Romans 15:27.

      I’m also interested in seeing your new project once it’s available.

      A final thought: I do believe that PJ and a few more of us are making a difference by commenting often at Charisma, particularly in the “Stand with Israel” section, and that people are paying attention to what we have to say which challenges the Christian Zionist narrative.

    • I’m glad to see you pointed out those particular verses Adam, in particular Romans 11. I was just thinking a few days ago, no matter what or how many verses we post to dispute certain erroneous beliefs held by Christian zionists, they post the same verses over and over, which by the way, actually rule out their beliefs! Romans 11 is very clear concerning the remnant. But they just don’t see it.

      Pray you are right in our chipping away over at Charisma. I would like to encourage others who read here to join in to some of these discussions under the portion of the magazine; “Standing with Israel”. aagrove, i believe you would be a huge asset in pointing out the biblical truth, as would others who read here. These people are deceived and are in need of help. Light, definitely needs to be shared over there.

  2. I’m still amazed at how I was hoodwinked. Preachings about the end times and how national Israel’s land was sacred land that couldn’t be touched by none other that true Jews, or how when she is under attack, not only those who attack her are under a curse, but those who ignore her needs are also under a curse. We were taught that Israel would always be Satan’s target, and that he hated Jews, as he was jealous of them, and of course christians as well. They would bring up the holocaust, as horrible as it was, and say that proved that Satan was relentless in hurting the Apple of God’s eye. When land was dispersed under Ariel Sharon (Gaza?), he soon after had a stroke and went into a coma. That August, if I’m correct, I believe hurricane Katrina happened, and many christian sites were suggesting this was God’s wrath on the U.S. because it didn’t try hard enough.

    We always were quoted Israel is the apple of God’s eye. He still can view her as the apple of his eye, I suppose, as well as view David as a man after His own heart. God did bless Isaac but did not bless Ishmael. God chose to give the land and inheritance through Isaac. He favored Mary among all women, and chose her. The OT proves that God favored some more than others, not in the way he loved them more than others, but that he required them to make a sacrifice, and it pleased Him (Abraham offering his son on the altar). Everyone that was willing to commit something was blessed by it.

    If Israel were to commit to God (through Jesus Christ), they would receive salvation. Through Christ, it appears to me, none of us can boast about how we offered ourselves FIRST to God. We can’t do that through the NT covenant. In the old, it was man seeking God first, and making an offering, then God reciprocating. Through Christ, it’s Christ seeking us and giving His life and sacrifice first, and us accepting it. The tides are completely turned.

    Therefore, no one can boast about how they first gave, or that they deserve some special recognition for being saved. No one can – through the New Testament. Jesus made the first move, like did Abraham make the first move. But Jesus is the Son of God, is God manifest in the flesh and He made the first move, and gives the sacrifice (gave His life on the cross) freely to all men. No man who receives Christ’s salvation can claim special treatment, as God is no respecter of persons. Even, in the OT, He was not a respecter of persons. He required a sacrifice from humans if they wanted to covenant with him. Now we, sinners, can have covenant with God freely gives us the covering of His Son’s blood. Our Father in heaven cared so much that he decided to offer His sinless Son to underserving children.

    This is great News!!!! more thing I wonder about. Each bible character had a unique way of pleasing God (Job, David, Jabel), yet all sinned, and all had different outcomes from their trials. IMO, the brethren of the NT are all unique and the Lord has a unique relationship with each one of us;but we can’t compare ourselves and we should certainly never think God loves us less or more than our brethren. All we can all do is rejoice that we all need the saving redeeming blood of the Savior, and nothing else but the blood of Jesus to cover us. Israel needs the blood of Jesus. She can still feel unique, because scripture proves she had a unique relationship with Jehovah God, because she sought Him out, but that can’t affect the way a blood-bought christian views her old life. Her old life is over and she’s been offered a new life, the same one gentiles have received. Alleluia!

    PJMiller: one question I have. Those 144,000 Jews of the 12 tribes who work in the very last days, how do they fit in and why would they be identified as such, what special work can they do?

    • but we can’t compare ourselves and we should certainly never think God loves us less or more than our brethren.

      Amen. But believing God does have ‘favorites’ has sadly been a belief of many Christians who were and are caught up in dispensationalist theology. It’s like a child growing up in their home knowing their father favored a sibling over them, all their life. I posted some years ago a few quotes from famous renown dispensationalist teachers–teachers whose beliefs are still being taught today. I’ll share a few with you. I do this Marie, for i get the impression you still question some of what i’ve posted. I understand it’s difficult to release false beliefs. Personally i understand this for i was a dispensationalist for 25 years. The best advice i can give you is to above all things, desire truth, then begin to research all you’ve been taught, holding it up to the word of God. Anyway, here are a few of the astounding quotes (beliefs) by famous dispy teachers:(all highlighting is mine for i want you to take special note of certain things, for these statements are flat-out wrong, unbiblical, as in they are NOT in the word of God, some are even heresy)

      Thomas Ice: “God will keep his original promises to the fathers and will one day convert and place Israel as the head of the nations.” (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 175.)

      Ryrie: “Israel, regathered and turned to the Lord in salvation, will be exalted, blessed, and favored throughout the period.”

      Pentecost: “The Gentiles will be Israel’s servants

      Walvoord: “Israel will be a glorious nation, protected from her enemies, exalted above the Gentiles. . . ” (The Millennial Kingdom (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1959), p. 136.)

      Herman Hoyt (past president of Grace Theological Seminary) puts it quite starkly: “The redeemed living nation of Israel, regenerated and regathered to the land, will be head over all the nations of earth. . . . So he (*God) exalts them above the Gentile nations . . . . On the lowest level there are the saved, living, Gentile nations.”

      Dave Hunt comments: “The Messiah ruling the world from the throne of David and with national Israel restored to its place of supremacy over the nations.

      http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/d/dispensationalism.html

      You asked about chapter 7 in revelation. How one reads the (entire) book depends upon their theology Marie. I detect you see this as literal. I would like to point you to a non literal interpretation found at Adam’s blog. see: REVELATION 7

      Dispensationalists are 100% literalists.

      I’d also like you to read what a few early commentaries say about this chapter and the significance of the 144,000. See HERE

      What im trying to help you see is understanding this literally was not the common manner in which most well known commentators (Of the past, prior to darby-ism) or the manner in which most Church fathers read this. The book of revelation is filled with symbols. This is one which is symbolic. One important reason why it has to be, is they are also referred to as “first fruit”. We know the first fruit (of the church) were those Jews who made up the early Church—

      Research this verse Marie. Only dispensationalists (futurists) see this as literal, to occur in the future.

      One other view can be found here: Who are the 144,000?

      Another: HERE

  3. Thanks for posting this. I will now delete Romans 2:11 from my bible. Apparently God IS a respecter of persons

    • Sad isn’t it. Don’t know if you read the thread but this person (who represents so many i run into every day) just cannot see it.😦

  4. For me the “key” to unlocking the door to God’s intent and purposes for the nations of the world comes from the book of Joshua when the “Captain of the Lord’s Army” appears to Joshua and Joshua asks “are you for us or against us”?

    Jos 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?”
    Jos 5:14 And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said … .

    See the answer was not anti Semitic nor was it affirmation. Why is the question important?

    My answer to the question unlocks the door to the mystery of the nation of Israel and comes after much pondering. The simple fact is this that the nation of Israel was used by God to establish that all humanity is fallen, including her human depravity. This nation was prophesied about by God directly when He spoke to Abram that “He”, God, would make Abram a great nation. Abram was no Saint! He was from a long line of idolaters. God indeed made Abram a great nation. Israel does have a great history that in my mind shows and underscores God’s reply to Joshua as cited above, “No”, neither, I’m neither for you or against you. God basically is saying He is God, sinless and has a purpose. The purpose is what you find inside after you open the door and walk inside.

    The purpose of God is to fulfill the promises He made to Abram\Abraham through “the Lord Jesus Christ”. If you go back and ponder what God promised Abram you see it clearly demonstrated through the purpose of the “great nation”, Israel. When you look past the purpose of the great nation, to Genesis 18, you have the “first” mention of the greater promise to Abraham, that is, God promises to also bless nations both then and now through Abraham. In chapter 12 of Genesis God promises to make “Abram” a great nation, a blessing and through one of his heirs, “families” could be blessed.

    Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.
    Gen 12:2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
    Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

    Later and after Genesis 17 you come to these Words in Genesis 18: Gen 18:17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
    Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

    God’s plan all along was for Israel to fail. She failed. She was destroyed because she wouldn’t repent. She thought she could live BY HER OWN POWER sinlessly! The purpose of the Law wasn’t to help Israel live a sinless life but a purposeful life.

    That’s the crux of this matter. Sin and living a sinless life isn’t accomplished by keeping the Law of Righteousness. Israel was never going to live a sinless life just like none of us are going to live sinless lives that way! She as we need a Savior.

    The greatness of Israel is Jesus Christ, a Jew, born of a Jewish virgin girl, who just so happened to know the Ancient writings of her nation and was expecting just like all Jewish girls from birth are taught to expect, that they might be the chosen one, the one virgin to be born to bear the Savior of the world in her day.

    I wonder what the Jews teach their virgin girls today seeing they disregard the Christian message that Christ Jesus is the Savior of the world? They are still living under the assumption God is going to send the Savior of the world to them some day?

    Keep in mind the way God described Israel as a kingdom of Priests and a holy nation is the same way He describes the Church as is revealed by Peter when he writes about the Church being described that way in 1 Peter.

    What the great nation of Israel failed to accomplish, the Lord Jesus Christ through His Church won’t fail to accomplish.

    The nation of Israel failed because of the burden of the Law of Righteousness placed on her shoulders through Moses. Remember the burden of the Grace of God is light and always has been. The Gospel was preached and taught first. The Law came in to highlight the necessity for the Gospel not the Gospel came to highlight the necessity of the Law. No one can keep the Law. The great purpose of Israel to fail keeping the Law of Righteousness was only to show that truth to all nations so that all nations could see their own futility, that is, keeping a religious order before God BY THEIR OWN POWER to remain in a righteous relationship with God.

    No one can keep a righteous relationship with God, no one, no nation and that includes the great nation, Israel then or now. There is nothing special about Israel today. She is just as sinful and rebellious towards the law keeping now as she was after Moses.

    No nation can keep a righteous relationship with God. All nations and families are under the same curse of the sins of Adam and Eve, not the sins of Israel. Israel is a type of “national” religion. Her sole purpose then and now is to help people get freed from their own human based religion. She today is a good testament of a failed national religion.

    Oh well, in my view, the Lord established the reality what one must submit to to get out of this world alive to live for the rest of eternity in the Presence and Majestic Glory of God not in the eternal wrath of the judgment of God. Here’s one of the best most succinct “visions” of this “purpose” found in Scripture:

    From the Old Testament: 1Ch 16:31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, “The LORD reigns!”
    1Ch 16:32 Let the sea roar, and all that fills it; let the field exult, and everything in it!
    1Ch 16:33 Then shall the trees of the forest sing for joy before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth.

    From the New Testament: Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
    Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
    Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
    Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

    God is neither for nor against Israel or all other humanity. He is for the salvation of the souls of men that we might be redeemed from ourselves first of all and from the world and her wickedness. See Revelation 18.

    Redemption is through Jesus Christ. It’s serious business to live in direct rebellion against God. The great apostle Peter quoting Moses said it best, in my view, here:

    Act 3:22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
    Act 3:23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

  5. PJ, great discussions. Just discovered this thru Adam Marshacks blog. What you two are doing is real spiritual warfare!! if you get a chance, go to Charisma 1/1/15 to Ron Cantor’s video/article on “does the new covenant really not give Israel the land promise” or to that effect. When anyone comes against the new covenant blood of Jesus in any manner, this is Satan talking…. I know. Check my comment on this falsehood by Mr. Cantor. If my comment could be improved let me know!
    Thank you so much for a great site!

    • Thank you for commenting John, i’ve been following you for some time….especially at Charisma. I agree, it is spiritual warfare, as you yourself know. Not any-place i’d have chosen to go, or any topic i would have picked, but God had other ideas. Aha! Its made me many enemies, but try as i might i cannot let it go, even if it’s cost me friends and brings spiritual attacks. I’m sure you know the feeling: but when God leads you in a certain direction we must follow.

      I will check out the post you mentioned!

    • Hey John, i can’t find that article, can you post the link for me here, i’d sure appreciate it!

      Found it at Ron Cantor’s website: http://messiahsmandate.org/does-the-new-covenant-affirm-land-of-israel-promises/

      By the way, your reply to his message was excellent!

  6. Hey pj, thanks to my better 7/8 of a wife i am able to to do this…! Pretty sad….
    The title of the article is “Does the new covenant affirm land of Israel promises” The web site is Messiahs mandate. Thank you so much and God bless!
    http://messiahsmandate.org/does-the-new-covenant-affirm-land-of-israel-promises/

    • Thanks for confirming it John. Had a hunch i might locate it at Ron’s personal blog. It will most likely show up at Charisma as well.

    • Thanks brother! I am new to this stuff on the internet concerning others perspective on the new covenant. Being out of touch for a couple of decades i am learning a lot on computer discussions. Ron Cantor did NOT like my post….
      Thanks SO much!!

    • You’re doing pretty good for a newbie John! ahaha… I just left a post over there myself. Ron and i have bumped heads quite a few times in the past 2 years at Charisma. Some of his articles/teachings boarder on out and out heresy, in my opinion. And that’s being kind😉

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