This is an interesting article. Its to be included in the April 13th Newsweek edition: The End of Christian America
What makes it interesting is the narrative with Albert Mohler, concerning a recent commentary he wrote.
A few quotes..
It was a small detail, a point of comparison buried in the fifth paragraph on the 17th page of a 24-page summary of the 2009 American Religious Identification Survey. But as R. Albert Mohler Jr.—president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the largest on earth—read over the document after its release in March, he was struck by a single sentence.
For a believer like Mohler—the central news of the survey was troubling enough: the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has nearly doubled since 1990, rising from 8 to 15 percent.
Then came the point he could not get out of his mind: while the unaffiliated have historically been concentrated in the Pacific Northwest, the report said, “this pattern has now changed, and the Northeast emerged in 2008 as the new stronghold of the religiously unidentified.”
As Mohler saw it, the historic foundation of America’s religious culture was cracking.
“That really hit me hard,” he told me last week. “The Northwest was never as religious, never as congregationalized, as the Northeast, which was the foundation, the home base, of American religion. To lose New England struck me as momentous.” Turning the report over in his mind, Mohler posted a despairing online column on the eve of Holy Week lamenting the decline—and, by implication, the imminent fall—of an America shaped and suffused by Christianity.
When Mohler and I spoke in the days after he wrote this, he had grown even gloomier. “Clearly, there is a new narrative, a post-Christian narrative, that is animating large portions of this society,” he said from his office on campus in Louisville, Ky.
There it was, an old term with new urgency: post-Christian.
While we remain a nation decisively shaped by religious faith, our politics and our culture are, in the main, less influenced by movements and arguments of an explicitly Christian character than they were even five years ago. I think this is a good thing—good for our political culture, which, as the American Founders saw, is complex and charged enough without attempting to compel or coerce religious belief or observance. It is good for Christianity, too, in that many Christians are rediscovering the virtues of a separation of church and state that protects what Roger Williams, who founded Rhode Island as a haven for religious dissenters, called “the garden of the church” from “the wilderness of the world.”
(I)n the new NEWSWEEK Poll, fewer people now think of the United States as a “Christian nation” than did so when George W. Bush was president (62 percent in 2009 versus 69 percent in 2008).
Many conservative Christians believe they have lost the battles over issues such as abortion, school prayer and even same-sex marriage, and that the country has now entered a post-Christian phase.
Which is precisely what most troubles Mohler. “The post-Christian narrative is radically different; it offers spirituality, however defined, without binding authority,” he told me. “It is based on an understanding of history that presumes a less tolerant past and a more tolerant future, with the present as an important transitional step.” The present, in this sense, is less about the death of God and more about the birth of many gods. The rising numbers of religiously unaffiliated Americans are people more apt to call themselves “spiritual” rather than “religious.” (In the new NEWSWEEK Poll, 30 percent describe themselves this way, up from 24 percent in 2005.)
What, then, does it mean to talk of “Christian America”?
Evangelical Christians have long believed that the United States should be a nation whose political life is based upon and governed by their interpretation of biblical and theological principles.
If the church believes drinking to be a sin, for instance, then the laws of the state should ban the consumption of alcohol. If the church believes the theory of evolution conflicts with a literal reading of the Book of Genesis, then the public schools should tailor their lessons accordingly. If the church believes abortion should be outlawed, then the legislatures and courts of the land should follow suit.
The intensity of feeling about how Christian the nation should be has ebbed and flowed since Jamestown; there is, as the Bible says, no thing new under the sun.
For more than 40 years, the debate that began with the Supreme Court’s decision to end mandatory school prayer in 1962 (and accelerated with the Roe v. Wade ruling 11 years later) may not have been novel, but it has been ferocious. Fearing the coming of a Europe-like secular state, the right longed to engineer a return to what it believed was a Christian America of yore.
But that project has failed, at least for now.
In Texas, authorities have decided to side with science, not theology, in a dispute over the teaching of evolution. The terrible economic times have not led to an increase in church attendance. In Iowa last Friday, the state Supreme Court ruled against a ban on same-sex marriage, a defeat for religious conservatives.
Such evidence is what has believers fretting about the possibility of an age dominated by a newly muscular secularism.
“The moral teachings of Christianity have exerted an incalculable influence on Western civilization,” Mohler says. “As those moral teachings fade into cultural memory, a secularized morality takes their place. Once Christianity is abandoned by a significant portion of the population, the moral landscape necessarily changes. For the better part of the 20th century, the nations of Western Europe led the way in the abandonment of Christian commitments. Christian moral reflexes and moral principles gave way to the loosening grip of a Christian memory. Now even that Christian memory is absent from the lives of millions.”
“The worst fault of evangelicals in terms of politics over the last 30 years has been an incredible naiveté about politics and politicians and parties,” says Mohler.
“They invested far too much hope in a political solution to what are transpolitical issues and problems. If we were in a situation that were more European, where the parties differed mostly on traditional political issues rather than moral ones, or if there were more parties, then we would probably have a very different picture. But when abortion and a moral understanding of the human good became associated with one party, Christians had few options politically.”
When that party failed to deliver—and it did fail—some in the movement responded by retreating into radicalism, convinced of the wickedness and venality of the political universe that dealt them defeat after defeat. (The same thing happened to many liberals after 1968: infuriated by the conservative mood of the country, the left reacted angrily and moved ever leftward.)
The columnist Cal Thomas was an early figure in the Moral Majority who came to see the Christian American movement as fatally flawed in theological terms.
“No country can be truly ‘Christian’,” Thomas says. “Only people can. God is above all nations, and, in fact, Isaiah says that ‘All nations are to him a drop in the bucket and less than nothing’.” Thinking back across the decades, Thomas recalls the hope—and the failure. “We were going through organizing like-minded people to ‘return’ America to a time of greater morality. Of course, this was to be done through politicians who had a difficult time imposing morality on themselves!”
Experience shows that religious authorities can themselves be corrupted by proximity to political power.
A quarter century ago, three scholars who are also evangelical Christians—Mark A. Noll, Nathan O. Hatch and George M. Marsden—published an important but too-little-known book, “The Search for Christian America.” In it they argued that Christianity’s claims transcend any political order.
Christians, they wrote, “should not have illusions about the nature of human governments. Ultimately they belong to what Augustine calls ‘the city of the world,’ in which self-interest rules … all governments can be brutal killers.”
Their view tracks with that of the Psalmist, who said, “Put not thy trust in princes,” and there is much New Testament evidence to support a vision of faith and politics in which the church is truest to its core mission when it is the farthest from the entanglements of power.
The Jesus of the Gospels resolutely refuses to use the means of this world—either the clash of arms or the passions of politics—to further his ends. After the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the dazzled throng thought they had found their earthly messiah. “When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.”
When one of his followers slices off the ear of one of the arresting party in Gethsemane, Jesus says, “Put up thy sword.”
Later, before Pilate, he says, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.”
The preponderance of lessons from the Gospels and from the rest of the New Testament suggests that earthly power is transitory and corrupting, and that the followers of Jesus should be more attentive to matters spiritual than political.
Back in Louisville, preparing for Easter, Al Mohler keeps vigil over the culture.
Last week he posted a column titled “Does Your Pastor Believe in God?,” one on abortion and assisted suicide and another on the coming wave of pastors. “Jesus Christ promised that the very gates of Hell would not prevail against his church,” Mohler wrote. “This new generation of young pastors intends to push back against hell in bold and visionary ministry. Expect to see the sparks fly.”
On the telephone with me, he added: “What we are seeing now is the evidence of a pattern that began a very long time ago of intellectual and cultural and political changes in thought and mind. The conditions have changed. Hard to pinpoint where, but whatever came after the Enlightenment was going to be very different than what came before.”
***
(Read the entire 4 pages HERE)
I read excerpts from the Albert Mohler column after it appeared at The Church of Jesus Christ blog, and left a comment, which I still agree with.
What I didn’t point out is still another issue here: which is many like Albert Mohler are now, in my honest opinion, just beginning to awaken to the truth.
That being, many years have been wasted by Christians and our Christian leaders (at least 30) in trying to change this Nation (speaking of the people) from the outside. And that it has been a colossal failure.
They are now waking up, as out of a dream to the stark reality that for all their protesting, petitioning, politicizing, etc etc; evil has still continued to expand and grow.
Their efforts at cleaning the outside of the cup first, have resulted in no lasting changes: it changed nothing nor did it stop the darkness from spreading: Why? Because the inside of the cup has continued to remain ‘dirty’ and has only grown more filthy, by being long-neglected.
My hope is that now, they will begin to see that real difference–real change, begins from the inside: not inside government but inside individuals. And that only God can bring about that kind of permanent change. Its called being born again.
Also that we the Church, called to come outside the camp, cannot use the ways and methods of the camp/world (the arm of flesh) to fight spiritual darkness…
Do I believe we are seeing the end of Christianity in America? No…
The body of Christ has always been made up of a remnant, regardless of size, in every Nation. It will continue to be so here in the US.
Cal Thomas echos my own beliefs, which I’ve stated many times, Nations are not Christian, people are. Its our job to take the message of salvation, through Christ alone, to the people. This is how true change comes about. Not by legislation or enacting laws concerning morality.
Sola Dei Gloria 
I didn’t feel like going through all of that. Too busy jamming out to Nine Inch Nails again. However, I do have some immediate observations. First, they talk about “post-Christian America” as being a positive for Christianity… But which Christianity? There are many Christianities when you think about it. I once read an article by an “infidel” (he called himself that) psychologist/political commentator. The article was dated back during sometime in the Clinton era. He talked about how Christianity is its own best witness for disbelieving in it. He says the Church, as a whole, has lost its foundational truths. He stated that the Church of the “modern age” (we are now in the “post modern age”) stressed personal responsibility and a strong work ethic. It stressed righteousness and accountability. Unfortunately, he says, the new leaders of the church are merely closet atheists. They’re the children of the “modern age”, eternally spoiled by the wealth accumulated by the previous generations. Useless Ghouls who play at self help pop psychology, and even at this they are incompetent. Merely people without knowledge or understanding who hide behind the easy garb of religious respectability. He calls it narcissism. And these people wearing the brows of righteousness spread pop-religion in the pulpits. They no longer believe in anything. The authority of scripture is no longer taken seriously. Standards are almost non-existent. Sex between leaders of the church and members of the congregation is not frowned upon. And the old ways of teachings self responsibility has all died. He made more superior deep points than these, this is only what I remember. He approached it almost from a clinical point of view. Psychology extended to many people.
Is this the Christianity that will win in “post Christian” America? When you think of it, the “Christians” who are “free” from the “world” are the Christians who will not be making moral judgments on leaders. They’re the people who will sit around in their churches talking about how best to save the environment, or how best to feed the bums or some other such “safe” activism. They will not comment on what goes on in government or culture because those things are part of “the world”. This is “good” for Christianity only for those who hate interference in their agenda. That’s why it’s “good”, that’s why people have been harping lately on the “death of political Christianity”. It’s wishful thinking. Their righteous condemnations of the “Christian Right” are just veiled wishful thinkings. Their opinions aren’t righteous, they just play at righteousness, but in the end the “Christianity” they are happy with is that Christianity which is irrelevant. A Christianity that doesn’t partake in the “world” can’t influence the culture it lives in. It hides its light. And the day will come when these people who go door to door preaching the Gospel will no longer be taken seriously. Consider Glen Beck, that radical with the high ratings these days on Fox News. He’s only been there for maybe a month or so but his ratings are blowing out the competition. He’s winning because he’s interesting… He’s direct… He’s confrontational. He is “strong” in his beliefs. Similarly, I have noticed that other people who are “strong” in anything tend to get the most attention. What happened to McCain? His “strength” was in his so called moderation. He was “strong” in his ability to not take a position that really pissed off the other side. Democrats called this a blessing and a good sign, and then Obama won. Obviously, being a moderate didn’t win him the campaign. You see, strength attracts followers. The Truth is strong, and those who speak truth must be strong. Jesus said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword between husbands and wives. Strength is defined as the ability to believe in something and to speak it without fear. A Church that doesn’t take any strong positions but only hides in what is considered “safe” by the post-modern world cannot be considered strong. It’s just pop-religion, pop-prayer groups, pop-Gospel. In the end, they’re so afraid of taking any position that they will not be able to maintain their flocks. They’ll be too busy being “righteous” in their own sights and will be unable to tend to their congregation’s psychological and spiritual needs. They will not be able to answer the growing trends in society or the political leaders who exploit and cause those trends. They’ll be too busy “moderating” or “getting away from the world” to do anything about it. In the end, they’ll vomit out their insides and will be simply hollow in the sight of the world… And then one day barbarians will come, and these barbarians with strong arms will club to death the shallow Christians. They will win because they are stronger than Western Civilization. The ideas behind them will prevail because they have substance, they have depth. Christianity has no depth, so it will die. That is true “post Christian” America. That is the America we live in right now. That is the America that Christianity created. Once the civilizer of the world, the religion that spread morality and responsibility has degenerated into the religion that actually encourages abominations.
I dont think one should ignore the outside of the cup when washing it. I doubt few have ignored peoples souls iin favor of dirty politics. Paul worked for a living, & it is appropriate to do so. There is nothing wrong with people making thier living working in government. Why ignore the outside of the child you are trying to heal with medicine he takes internally? If you do, more illlness will come. People need Christ. Our government needs true Christians, otherwise the moral compass of the government with spin, as it has been doing more & more. We need to have more christians in office, not to pass laws to force church upon people, but to help government make better decisions.
I think many people who complain about the idea of christians in government are often reacting against dominionism. I think both are wrong. God is supreme. He does not need our filthy rags. Yet He uses them. He calls us to repentance and holy living, to live in the world without being part of it.
This does not mean politics is the answer to all our problens, as Christ is. But we should focus on the internal man while also cleaning the outside. We do this in part by providing an environment that protects lives and freedom. This is best done by prayer, evangelism, & discipleship. But you evagelize by getting access to people. Being in government provides access to people you would not otherwise have. Part of providing said environment is being in places where people who love Christ can make right choices ro ptrotect lives & freedoms.
Do you do dishes? Wish i had a nickle for every cup or glass i’ve washed over the last 50 years. ahaha…
When one washes a cup or glass they always start with the inside…did you know that? Its where all the hidden ‘gook’ is…
Ask yourself–if you had a choice what would you rather drink out of: a glass which had only been washed on the outside, or one which had only been washed on the inside? If i only had those two choices, i’d pick the one washed on the inside.
Yes, actually, I wash dishes all the time. I’ve noticed, the water usually gets on the outside first. I usually squirt extra soap in the inside and get it wet and soapy inside and out before rinsing it. I do not drink from a cup that is dirty, inside or out. Why put your lips on filth even if the inside is clean?
You can’t ignore the outside while paying attention to the inside. You don’t ignore the fact that a man is starving to death while he is bleeding to death and still in need of Christ. You set priorities, share Chirst while stopping the bleeding, but before he’s ‘healed’ from that, you address the starvation as well. Do evangelism, but also be a good steward in the political realm.
To ignore the political realm is to be a bad steward of what God has given us. I am not saying try to make this a Christian nation (nation full of christians) through the political realm. I don’t think that works.
I was giving you a choice…one or the other. Of course we would prefer a cup to be clean both on the inside and outside! But, if given the choice of drinking from one cleaned “only” inside or outside, i’ll pick the one washed inside, where what im partaking of is located.
Follow-up: An interesting article from The Washington Monthly.
A RELIGIOUS RIGHT CRACK-UP? – April 5, 2009
In general, the most noticeable fissure among politically conservative evangelical Christians is generational. In this dynamic, older evangelicals see themselves as an appendage of the Republican Party, and consider abortion and gay rights as the only “moral” issues that matter. Younger evangelicals are less partisan, and consider poverty and global warming important, too.
But there’s another fissure, which in the short term, may be even more consequential. It’s between leaders of the religious movement vs. those more inclined to take John 18:36 to heart (Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world”).
The split first emerged, on a conceptual level, about a decade ago, when Cal Thomas, a far-right columnist and founding member of the Moral Majority, write a book called “Blinded by Might,” arguing that conservative evangelical Christians have been going about their efforts all wrong. Religious right activists, Thomas said, should focus less on political power and influence — having a seat at the proverbial GOP table — and more on religion and family.
In her Washington Post column today, Kathleen Parker reports on how this kind of thinking as grown considerably more common, to the point that many “principled Christians” are now “finished with politics.”
Parker highlights a recent argument between Tom Minnery, head of the political arm of Focus on the Family, and Steve Deace of WHO Radio in Iowa:
Deace’s point was that established Christian activist groups too often settle for lesser evils in exchange for electing Republicans…. Compromise may be the grease of politics, but it has no place in Christian orthodoxy, according to Deace.
Put another way, Christians may have no place in the political fray of dealmaking. That doesn’t mean one disengages from political life, but it might mean that the church shouldn’t be a branch of the Republican Party. It might mean trading fame and fortune (green rooms and fundraisers) for humility and charity.
Deace’s radio show may be beneath the radar of most Americans and even most Christians, but he is not alone in his thinking. I was alerted to the Deace-Minnery interview by E. Ray Moore — founder of the South Carolina-based Exodus Mandate, an initiative to encourage Christian education and home schooling. Moore, who considers himself a member of the Christian right, thinks the movement is imploding.
“It’s hard to admit defeat, but this one was self-inflicted,” he wrote in an e-mail. “Yes, Dr. Dobson and the pro-family or Christian right political movement is a failure; it would have made me sad to say this in the past, but they have done it to themselves.”
For Christians such as Moore — and others better known, such as columnist Cal Thomas, a former vice president for the Moral Majority — the heart of Christianity is in the home, not the halls of Congress or even the courts. And the route to a more moral America is through good works — service, prayer and education — not political lobbying.
It’s worth noting that both sides of the fissure believe the culture war has effectively been lost, but they differ wildly on the diagnosis. For religious right leaders, the culture war flopped because they faced too many enemies (popular culture, changing norms, progressive interest groups) with too few allies (no Republican follow-through). For those like Deace and Thomas, the war never should have been fought in the first place, because it required principled Christians to effectively become political lobbyists.
Thomas told Parker, “If people who call themselves Christians want to see any influence in the culture, then they ought to start following the commands of Jesus and people will be so amazed that they will be attracted to Him. The problem isn’t political. The problem is moral and spiritual…. You have the choice between a way that works and brings no credit or money or national attention. Or, a way that doesn’t work that gets you lots of attention and has little influence on the culture.”
I think its possible to be invovled in government and politics and not succumb to the immoralities many are involved with. If the soldiers and tax collecters could be in their positions in the time of Christ and be told to do their jobs without taking advantage of people (Luke 13:12-14), then would Christ tell the politicians and other people in government to get out or to do your job and not sin? I think the latter.
Guys, im not ignoring your comments, i’ve just been so interested in reading the comments from those who read this story out of newsweek. Its been posted on quite a few non-Christian secular websites today, including major news org/sites.
Reading the comments left under articles such as this one, by non-Christians (the lost) has been something i’ve done over the last few years: it helps give me a good idea of how the lost perceive Christianity and/or US Christians.
Something which may surprise you: many of the comments by the lost have nothing but good things to say about Jesus, but little good to say about the politicized Church today. And what always amazes me is the fact that many of them quote scripture.
Here’s a few quotes among the hundreds i’ve read so far today, concerning the two articles above:
The above comments, give us an idea of what those outside the body of Christ think…Those waiting to see the real Church through the actions of you and I.
Here are a couple comments, left in the same thread which the above comments came from–but these are from believers:
Thought someone might enjoy getting a peek into what others are saying…especially the lost.
[QUOTE]The above comments, give us an idea of what those outside the body of Christ think…[/QUOTE]
The question is, does their opinion matter? Most of them are delusional. Their view of Christianity is twisted, full of false premise. Their “Jesus” was someone no different than themselves who would never condemn them to hell. And their idea of “political Christians” isn’t all that different than yours. Full of fantasies about Right Wing Nazi ‘Christians’ and secret organizations of “neo-cons” and the like.
O, to me, very much so Ricardo..
It has interested me very much that over the last 8 years, a huge majority of the lost have not seen Christ within those who claim to be ambassadors “for” Christ.
It should cause us all great concern and make us take a close look at just what [and who] we as Christians have been representing.
And what alternative to they have? If they don’t take the so called “political” (conservative) Christians as their example of Christianity, what is left? The liberal ones? The ones who speak in tongues? The ones who pray in their churches and shun the outside world? The ones who sit around talking about the evil of the other “political” Christians? Which would you have them choose? They’re worthless these people.
Isaiah 1:17 says this: “Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.”
Israel was being judged because they were failing mightily in these areas and others.
Now before somebody says that Israel was God’s covenant people and so of course He judged them for these things, (I have heard that argument before), remember that He also repeatedly judged other nations in the Old Testament history for their sins too. Has God so changed that He doesn’t do that anymore? After all, it says He is the unchanging God so I don’t think so.
So what makes us think that we as a nation will not be judged? And why do we think that as Christians our only responsibility is to win people to the Lord? I am not at all saying that is not our major responsibility, it is.
But are we not to follow the commands of Isaiah 1:17 too? This command was given to the people and rulers of Israel alike. A search in a lexicon of many of the words in that verse show that they have to do with courts and laws. Remember, Paul said that all Scripture is for doctrine, correction, instruction in righteousness, etc. (II Timothy 3:17) When we live in a nation that encourages input from it’s citizens, should we not take advantage of the opportunity? They didn’t have much of that opportunity in Paul’s day but we do.
Romans 13:3-4 says: “For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.”
How can a government be an avenger of evil if they are the ones saying that evil is o,k.? Think abortion for instance. If we can at all make our voices heard in an area like this and MAYBE have an effect, should we not speak up? (Remember the Isaiah Scripture I quoted earlier.)
Now that doesn’t mean we are going to have huge success. Maybe we won’t have success at all. But does that mean we are to totally stop trying?
One thing we cannot forget is that Israel [and its people] were chosen by God to be a nation and people as an example for the world. They were set apart for that purpose.
Now, under the new covenant, we are those people Cheryl…and we ‘live’ in that spiritual nation–citizens of that spiritual city, New Jerusalem.
We are now to be the example–those chosen and called out [of this world and its systems].
The Israel and Jews of the old testament, under the old covenant [the law] are to be our examples today. (not the law but the spirit of the law)
Not America or a Nation, but a ‘people’… those in the body of Christ.
I believe God does judge nations. But what would be one reason God might withhold or put off judging a nation? Christians. But not just those who call themselves Christians but “salty” Christians. We are called to be the salt in the nation we were chosen to live in. But if we are to continue BEING salt, then we must not become mixed in with the world. If we do this we lose our ‘saltiness’ and are good for nothing.
This is what i believe has occurred in America over the last 20-30 years: our Christian leaders have jumped into bed with politics and no longer see issues from the perspective of the word of God, but from other perspectives: if you’re an Evangelical deeply involved in politics, you’re seeing issues and problems from that position, and not God’s word only.
Its an unholy mixture, and not pure ‘salt’.
We go by the example of the early church–laid out in the new testament.
What did they do…what was their purpose, etc? If you know that then you know what our purpose is today! As you said, God hasn’t changed, right?
PJ,
I know from a discussion in the past on your site that you vote. May I ask why you vote? Are you not voting for the candidate that you believe will do the best job of governing this country and presumably the candidate that best matches your convictions on things? Is the mere act of voting not trying to change things in this country for the better as you see it? I’m pretty sure you spoke of that fact in the past discussion. If you are part of the Kingdom of God–a spiritual nation–and should not try to make anything better here in this nation, how can you justify voting? And if you can justify voting, why can you not justify other ways of trying to improve things here?
‘IF’ i vote its because the Spirit of God leads me to Cheryl..
That’s been the way i’ve voted [or not voted] for the last 30 years since coming to Christ.
PJ,
I think maybe you are missing the point I am trying to make. I am saying that you seem to keeep making the point that we as Christians are not to try to change things for the better in this country by doing anything in the political realm because you say it doesn’t work and because we are of a spiritual Kingdom not an earthly one.
I am saying that the very act of voting is participating in that political process and trying to change things in this country. And now you are saying that God leads you do do so? How can God lead you to do something we are not to do because we are of a different Kingdom?
And if God can lead you to do that, why can’t He lead others to participate in other ways?
I thought the below quote kinda nailed it!!
I have been noticing this on bumper stickers
for a while now. It always struck me as the one true
statement when seen among many other wacky stickers on
the same car.
“””I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians,
they are so unlike your Christ. – Gandhi”””””
And you know, when reading many comments left on secular websites, that is the general consensus.
One thing i’ve learned from being on Christian boards and now a blog is, many Christians are not good listeners at all. They appear to only hear themselves or other like-minded Christians. In their arrogance they do not ‘hear’ what the lost are really saying behind their words–which in many instances is ‘I want to believe…show me Jesus in you’
I think Jesus listened as well as talked to the lost– don’t you? I believe many of the lost today, who don’t care for attitudes Christians possess, see this trait in the Jesus of the bible…sometimes better then we do.
Amen to that PJ !
Of course it is their consensus. They’re consensually stupid. Ghandi’s “Jesus” apparently was not so great since Ghandi didn’t worship him. Any fool who sees the truth about Christ would believe in him. They merely justify their lack of belief by saying that. It makes them feel more “righteous”. Just vanity, that’s all. Everything is vanity!
Not ‘consensually stupid’ but blind and lost.
As were we at one time.
Ricardo,
Your question actually says it all.
Its a confirmation of how many Christians in the US see Christianity as either conservative or liberal, and how conservative has come to mean political.
You ask about an alternative: how about biblical Christianity?
To be frank little brother, its the only Christianity God recognizes.
If you read the newsweek article then you know it included an interview and statements from Albert Mohler… today, Mohler’s column is a commentary on the article in newsweek:
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=3563
cheryl,
Did you read the article at newsweek? It wasn’t about voting, it was concerning the failure of those Christians who have become entangled in the Political Christian movement of the last 30 years, in attaining their goal of creating a ‘Christian Nation’ through legislation and secular government. Mohler points out that in the light of this political-Christian movement, Christianity has in fact declined. Declined in the numbers of those claiming to be Christians today.
(Mohler:– “Clearly, there is a new narrative, a post-Christian narrative, that is animating large portions of this society,” he said from his office on campus in Louisville, Ky…..According to the American Religious Identification Survey that got Mohler’s attention, the percentage of self-identified Christians has fallen 10 percentage points since 1990)
The author concluded: “This is not to say that the Christian God is dead, but that he is less of a force in American politics and culture than at any other time in recent memory.”
And went on to say: “While we remain a nation decisively shaped by religious faith, our politics and our culture are, in the main, less influenced by movements and arguments of an explicitly Christian character than they were even five years ago. I think this is a good thing—good for our political culture, which, as the American Founders saw, is complex and charged enough without attempting to compel or coerce religious belief or observance.
“It is good for Christianity, too, in that many Christians are rediscovering the virtues of a separation of church and state that protects what Roger Williams, who founded Rhode Island as a haven for religious dissenters, called “the garden of the church” from “the wilderness of the world.”
I agree with the author…the separation of Church and State is not only needful [for a healthy Church] but its biblical.
The fact that Church and State have been continuously blurring the line over the last 30 years, has not helped the Church [or cause of Christ] in the least, but has resulted in what has ultimately turned into what we know today as ‘political Christianity’.. And biblically, there is no such ‘animal’.
PJ,
Yes, I read the article. But unless I have really misunderstood you, everything you have said here and in the discussion on the other thread a while back, you have pretty much come across as saying that an individual Christian has no right to be involved in the political process period, except for your exception of voting. That is the point I have been trying to make. Anytime I bring up anything about trying to make a difference in any way on the national front, you say we are of another kingdom and that is not what we are supposed to be doing.
My question has been, and still is, how is voting any different than trying as an individual to make a difference in any other way? That doesn’t mean that you have to be a part of any huge organized Christian right movement.
It seems to me that to say you can’t speak into the political process in any way would also exclude voting because that is definitely speaking into the political process.
cheryl,
what i was trying to do was stick with the different issues/points brought up in the newsweek article.
Many of the points were excellent.
i understand threads can take on a life of their own, sometimes, and get off into fringe areas. Maybe that is what’s happened here? 🙂
Really, this has nothing to do with a Christian voting, or not: i tend to see that as something each believe should decide for themselves. Don’t you? I would never tell another believer not to vote.
PJ,
I think I’m pulling out of this discussion at this point, at least for now. We seem to be just going in circles here and getting nowhere!!
PJ,
You gave a choice between a cup clean on the inside or on the outside, but Jesus, in Lk11:42, said to tithe AND not ignore justice & the love of God. I think your choices were inconplete, which is why I chose option C – clean both. We should not ignore the governmental system set up by God. To do so ignores justice and the love of God.
I guess i was trying (and doing a bad job) in attempting to make a point wbmoore.
That being any cleansing of a people [or the nation they live in] on the outside is never going to bring about the type of real permanent change which will last. Where if we expend our energy giving them the cleansing word of God, so that they are changed inside first, this will not only lead to Godly permanent change, but also lead to an automatic desire, on their part afterward, to want to clean the outside. (Progressive sanctification)
I think we as Christians, like the pharisees, can many times get it backwards:
“Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.” Matt.23
“That being any cleansing of a people [or the nation they live in] on the outside is never going to bring about the type of real permanent change which will last.”
I totally agree with you. And I also agree that sometimes we get it backwards, focusing only on the outside and doing little or nothing about the inside. We need to focus on the inside. But this does not mean to ignore the outside.
Nor does this does mean we should ignore our environment while trying to bring people to Christ. The Church HAS done admirably well during times of persecution, and it looks like that is coming again for Christians in the West. But the Church has also done well in times where there was no persecution, as more time and money can be spent sending. Granted, during times of peace, the Church seems to fill to the brim with chaff. But its Christ’s job to clear that out in the end. Until then, we need to do what we can to provide an environment where justice prevails.
The reference I made to Lk11:42 was part of the same conversation you referenced in Mt 23, but it is also to be found in the Matthew 23 passage:
v23 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
We cant ignore justice, and by ignoring the political system we find ourselves in, we do just that. That’s all I’m saying.
I think i know where you’re coming from, and don’t disagree; its important to be concerned with both…
The only thing we may see differently wbmoore is which comes first! LOL
It does not matter how you attempt to make changes in man’s world through man’s system, you will never come up with a rightous nation. You can not legislate morallity. We as humans aren’t able to make are own selves clean. This can only be done by God through His Holy Spirit. He desires us to speak His Word, plant His seed that He can grow and make rightous. God gives the increase.
The idea of America ever being a Christian nation is something only religion can claim. Is it so dificult to see that the kingdom of God is the kingdom of peace. We are to love our enemies as Christians, not kill them. Christ said all the commandments are based on love of the Father first and of thy neighbor next. Religion has corrupted the gospel almost beyond recognition and everyone is now consumed with those things that have nothing to do with the kingdom. If we look at history we will see that multitudes of people died by the hands of the founders of this country to establish this country, to be seperate from a repressive king, not to serve the kingdom of God. A Christian’s battle is in spirit, not flesh and blood. If you believe anything other than this you are being decieved by those that desire to build their own kingdoms here and now for themselves, not for God. Those same decievers that tell you to submit to the rulers of this carnel world by perverting Rom.13 only seek to keep you in bondage as Paul said you have been freed by the spirit of Christ, why do you seek to be in bondage again. Yes it is true, if you follow the Word of God and keep the commandments, you may get locked up or you may even get killed, but that is what serving God is all about. You will be hated by all nations the Lord said. Do you think the world is no longer evil or do you think the Lord was just kidding. Don’t be fooled by religion, come out from among them, read God’s Word.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
🙂 aha! That can happen when trying to make our selves clear on these discussion boards/blogs. They’re not the easiest way to communicate…
I can’t accept the concept that one can’t be a Christian and a political activist who represents Christian values. That is divorcing oneself from the duty of being an upstanding citizen, because it’s like saying you can’t be a concerned human being and a Christian! Lots of Christian folk I know believe you can’t go on the internet and be a Christian, because it’s estimated to be from 75-90% porn of some type. So that’s applying a double standard.
We are to be good stewards of what God has given us, and good stewardship includes standing up for pro-life and against same sex marriage. In this way we stand up and be counted for the things the Lord is for and against.
So, I don’t believe it’s the Christians who have caused a drop in Christianity but the lack of the modern church’s interest in evangelizing. or being good stewards of the congregations they have.
Hi mbaker..
The article was commenting more on the organized movement itself , the christian-political movement, and its failure to stop the progression of many of the issues it has spent the last 30 years fighting against.
You brought up an interesting point:
Christians are the church, [i know you know that] so if interest in evangelizing has dropped, its been we, as a whole, which have been neglecting the great commission to take the gospel to the lost and disciple new converts.
Can’t recall off-hand now what the topic was, but i remember an article i posted last year which talked about statistics which showed how during the 8 years Bush was in office, interest in evangelizing (or organized witnessing programs) had dropped dramatically within Protestant churches. The authors reasoning as to why was very interesting. He/she believed it was because many of those who had participated in witnessing or in out-reach programs (in taking the gospel) felt that because they had helped elect a Christian President, the need to work as hard evangelizing was no longer needed.
But, PJ,isn’t that the reason you also gave that after voting we no longer needed to get involved in political activism?
What i don’t agree with mbaker, is the need for political organized movements by Christians. If someone could show me its something we should be doing from scripture, heck, i’ll jump on the next politically inspired christian bandwagon! LOL!!
But i just don’t see it in scripture…
We’ve had such organizations for 30 years, and they haven’t accomplished anything really– My thought is, perhaps its time to try something different.
Like possibly ‘prayer’? I know to many christians today that sounds lame–but is it? If we believe in God then we should believe in the power of prayer. Its God who really changes things, turns situations around, and changes people’s hearts. And many if not all of the ungodly issues we face today, like always, are a result of sinful unregenerate hearts. Political activism will never stop evil or sin…
That’s all im trying to say.
No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits,
since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.
2 Timothy 2:4
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:63
For those who live according to the flesh
SET THEIR MINDS ON THE THINGS OF THE FLESH (political movements),
but those who live according to the Spirit,
the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5
“The only thing we may see differently wbmoore is which comes first! ”
I’ve read enough of your blog to know we agree on the need for evangelism and discipleship being of primary importance.
Its just the way you come across as if you were saying to ignore the political system/government.
There is a short follow-up article on this piece at newsweek today, by the same author. Thought someone might like to read it.
Faith Isn’t Under Fire
The difference between Christianity and ‘Christian America’
By Jon Meacham | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Apr 8, 2009
I wrote a cover story for Newsweek this week entitled “The Decline and Fall of Christian America.” In the essay I argued that two things were going on in American religion this Holy Week. First, that new (and newish) data suggested that the percentage of Americans who self-identify as Christians has been falling, albeit from astronomical heights to semi-astronomical ones. The second point is that the political project undertaken by politically and theologically conservative Christians in the wake of Roe—what we call, in cultural and political shorthand, the rise of religious right—has failed.
Both observations seem inarguable to me. What is arguable—and what I argued—is that there is a connection between the two, and that the two have a cumulative effect.
Some have read the piece (or, I suspect, the coverline) as an attack on Christianity, which it is not and which would, in any case, be an act of self-loathing, since I am a Christian, albeit a poor one. Note that we did not say we were discussing the decline and fall of Christianity, or even the decline and fall of Christianity in America. But “Christian America” is something else again. It is the vision of a nation whose public life is governed by explicitly articulated and adopted Christian principles in the hope, I think, that God will bless and protect the country and its people in the spirit of II Chronicles 7:14. To see how well that is going from the perspective of the religious right, take a look at the news from Iowa and Vermont. I do not think, as some evangelicals do, that we are entering a “post-Christian” phase, but I do believe we are growing rather more secular than I would have anticipated even five years ago. The cumulative effect of a somewhat declining Christian population and a weakening Christian force in partisan politics is likely, I think, to lead to a more secular politics. Not wholly secular, to be sure, but more secular than we have been accustomed to in our Jesus-Winthrop-Reagan “city on a hill.”
This is a rich and fascinating topic, one as old—older, really—as the American experiment. From Jamestown forward we have struggled with the complicated balance between religion and politics and church and state; I personally believe that religion has, on the whole, been more of a force for good than for ill in American life and history. But as with anything on this side of Paradise, that is, to borrow Wellington’s phrase about Waterloo, a close-run thing.
John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge of The Economist—two distinguished journalists and authors who run one of the world’s great magazines—have published an engaging new book, “God Is Back,” and they have written about these issues both in the Wall Street Journal and on their website. I cannot recommend their work highly enough.
Some final words from the distant past.
Two hundred and thirty years ago, in a sermon to the Supreme Court of Massachusetts, the Reverend Samuel Stillman said:
“The magistrate is to govern the state, and Christ is to govern the church. The former will find business enough in the complex affairs of government to employ all his time and abilities. The latter is infinitely sufficient to manage his own kingdom without foreign aid.”
And, inevitably, from Toqueville, writing in the Age of Jackson:
“[In] allying itself with a political power, religion increases its power over some and loses the hope of reigning over all.”
That is the spirit, if you will, in which I wrote the Newsweek piece. And it is a spirit that I, for one, think is essential to preserving what is best about the American state—and what is best about the church in America, and everywhere, since it seems unlikely that the Lord God of Hosts keeps a careful eye on national boundaries. (link)
This may be a stretch but in my opinion Mega Churches are helping to lead in the decline of Spiritual Maturity in the true Body of Christ.
Jesus was not at the crowd in Jerusalem but in the upper room with 12 (not 12,000) Disciples. Churches should be training centers for its members to branch out into smaller Churches or groups not balloon into a Mega Church.
There maybe a rise in Mega Churches but what impact are they having in changing American culture? They are mostly social outlets and places to hear inspirational sermons and motivational speeches. Ironically it is probably every Pastors dream for a Mega Church, but is it the best model for growth & Spiritual Maturity?? I say “NO WAY”!
My reasons are as follows:
In a Mega Church you are a face among thousands, nobody in leadership knows your name (unless you are actively involved in Ministry with close ties to the Senior Pastor or Pastors inner circle).
There Is little or No Accountability. You are one face among thousands. Whereas in a smaller Church it is more noticeable if you are absent. In a larger Church there are too many faces to keep track of to notice if you have checked out.
There is Little to No emotional bonding or commitment to other members, it is just too big you may not see the same person twice and it may be impossible to sit in the same seat Sunday.
I was an active member but was gone nearly 2yrs from my former Church until someone noticed and wrote me a miss you card. My friend died but had been active in another Mega Church in the toddlers Ministry ( she took care of Toddlers so the Parents could attend the services inside) Many people with the exception of the parents of the Toddlers did not know it till months afterwards.
You are more of a Spectator that Participator the object is one personality:
The Head Pastor or Asst Pastors that bring the sermon, unless you are in the Choir. You basically come to watch and hear. In smaller Churches volunteers & help is needed in various capacities and you may be called upon to utilize your spiritual gifts in teaching a Bible Study, Hospitality, Hospital Visitation, etc. Whereas many Mega Churches have paid hired staff to help or serve in Ministry.
Unless you are self-motivated to get involved in smaller groups within the Mega Church there will not be any bonding or opportunity to be a Spiritual family.
Personal friends of mine attended the same Mega Church and we could never find one another unless we made a special effort to pick a place to meet like the Church Coffee shop, Bookstore, etc
No Mega Church Pastor is going to Counsel you or bury your loved ones unless you are in his inner circle, a Celebrity or some famous person. Have you tried calling Joel Osteen lately?
Unlike smaller Churches that can spot a mentally imbalanced person among them, there are too may people to keep track of In Mega Churches to have them come down to the altar for prayer request or a word of personal encouragement. Large Churches are now especially sensitive to law suits and Malpractice suits if lay people say or do the wrong thing or give some brief advice at the Altar.
There is a mad dash to get to the parking lot and beat the crowd out the door at least in my Church. I would love to hear how others rate Mega Churches vs small Churches.
Mega Churches are not healthy for spiritual growth or the development of a Spiritual Family for all of the reasons above.
I am looking for a smaller church family!
You can’t change the hearts of people by voting for a certain political Party.
This may make someone mad but Bush could not and did not stop one woman from getting an abortion. Society has to have a spiritual heart transplant. Some of meanest people I know attend Church faithfully. They even be running people away from the Lord.
SIN IS SIN FOLKS! Hatred in your heart is the same to God as the one who commits the hateful deed.
It wasn’t the pagans that killed Jesus it was the Religious folks, although God used it for His Plan of Redemption. What I’m trying to say is that only God can change the condition of the heart, not your voting record. When ones heart changes then abortions, murders, divorce, hatred, crime. etc will decrease.
I think what the above writer is trying to say is that if the Church would start living in obedience to God then God would move on our behalf. It seems the Lords glory is departing from this country the way He did in Ezekiel we have to clean up the inside before looking on the outside.
The Christian Church first needs to repent of our sins in tears of anguish and cry out for Jesus to forgive and help us first. George Barna did a pollster and discovered there are just as many divorces and a lot of and adultery and pornography in the church as there are with nonbelievers, yet we only focus on one or two sins abortion and gay marriage! This is a bad witness.
Something is seriously wrong and no political party can save us. We need Jesus to fix it! People are not accountable or growing spiritually while some Churches are entertainment centers. Looking for any other Savior but Jesus is idolatry including ones in your own party. I think it starts and ends with Jesus first.
Yes, i totally agree.
You’re right.
Glad to read someone else understands that…thanks!
Thank You PJ for posting The End of Christian America
Sharing with you all the following article:
Should Christians Join the Republican Party or the American Heritage Party?
Editor, The Sun
(March 1998 – In response to a forum asking if it was a good thing that some Evangelical conservatives switched from the Republican Party to the “American Heritage Party”. The last paragraph was edited out by the Sun and not published.)
Followers of Jesus will always be manipulated by the rulers of this world as long as they allow themselves to be entangled in worldly conflicts. The Republicans have used politically zealous Christians and so will the U.S. Taxpayers Party. The worldly tendency is to see a conflict in terms of “good guys and bad guys”, pick a side and jump on. Christians have been seduced through the centuries to do this very thing, not realizing that there are no “good guys”.
Satan works both sides of every worldly conflict. The only way followers of Jesus can do what we are called to do is by pulling out of the world system’s “Hegelian Dialectic”. We are called to a heavenly citizenship in which we are ambassadors for Christ to this foreign world system; rescuing people out of this system, instead of trying to reconstruct the world system.
This state’s affiliate to the U.S. Taxpayers Party is yet another example of “red- white-and-blue” idolatry: the American Heritage Party. This idolatry is based upon a false gospel of “morality” and “cultural values”. But there is only one Gospel as referred to by Paul, “For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”
Rather than building the Kingdom of God, which Jesus said is not of this earth, Christian political activists yoke themselves with the Harlot of Revelation 17: the counterfeit-Christian religious system that prostitutes itself with the political and economic rulers of this world.
http://procinwarn.com/amerherit.htm
Kelli, that’s an excellent article. Thank you sooo much for sharing it.
O that is so true!
We forget that satan is the prince and ruler [for now] of this world.
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Kelli, that’s an excellent article. Thank you sooo much for sharing it.
Satan works both sides of every worldly conflict.
O that is so true!
We forget that satan is the prince and ruler [for now] of this world.
kelli-We have been discussing this for a while PJ and this article is excellent as we are in the world but not of it but we have gotten entangled by the deception of whom this world belongs to and distracted by the political, economic and religious system which is anti-christ. Earth dwellers are fighting for the earth and looking for a kingdom here on this earth. We are just pilgrims passing through. Jesus suffered and was hated by the world system and we will suffer and be hated because we are not of the world system but followers of Our Lord Jesus. People are fighting back in this world system through the radio and web sites but for an earthly kingdom which is anti-christ.