27 Comments

More white Evangelicals support torture…


I’m not really surprised by the Pew Forum survey quoted in this article at CNN: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful, though I’m not sure what it says about Churches in the US today…

WASHINGTON (CNN) — The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey. More than half of people who attend services at least once a week — 54 percent — said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. (more here)

27 comments on “More white Evangelicals support torture…

  1. American church 2009=German church 1939.

    Neither had much of anything to do with Jesus, and everything to do with nation worship.

  2. Surveys can have a lot of errors dependending on the sample population of the respondents. 742 is a very small sample for the US population and thus this research has a very big “margin of error” in statistical terms. The problem is the media likes to sensationalize researches on religion especially when it is so negative without really checking the possible validity and reliability of the research. Another research should cross validate the data on the news with a bigger population sample from different parts of the US. As for me and most statisticians this recent kind of research is most likely unreliable, invalid, and has a very wide range of “margin of error” aside from other variables that could have affected the outcome of this research. Most likely the one who did this research has a hidden agenda against religious people.

  3. No one can ever say for certain how reliable any type of poll is, but i will say the Pew Forum has always been more reliable and unbiased then say, Barna. Mainly because they actually don’t seem to ever have a personal agenda.

    To read about the org. you can go here:

    ABOUT: http://pewforum.org/about/

  4. Synagogues of Satan …

  5. Amen Job.

    Good response to this at ChuckWarnock.com

    quote..

    The Pew Forum offers a very disturbing view of regular church attenders with their latest report on torture opinions. We might all be better off staying home on Sunday mornings if this is the best we can do.

    When asked to respond to the statement, “Torture to gain important information from terrorists is justified…” here’s how weekly church-goers answered:

    16% said torture is justified “often;”
    38% said torture is justified “sometimes;”
    19% said torture is justified “rarely;” and finally,
    25% said torture is justified “never.”

    Let me repeat this finding: 54% of weekly church attenders said that the use of torture is okay when used to gain important information from terrorists. This position, of course, would be a violation of international law, the law of the United States of America, and the U.S. Military Field Manual, not to mention the law of love — love God, love your neighbor.

    But, it only gets worse. Only 42% of those who “seldom” or “never” attend church believe that torture is justified “often” or “sometimes.” In other words, the non-church folks have a better, more humane ethic than church-goers.

    In other words, non-church folks have a better, more humane ethic than church-goers.

    I’m reminded of the legendary story of Vince Lombardi who, after his team lost a game, came into the locker room and announced that they were going back to the basics. With that, Lombardi reportedly held up a pigskin, and said, “Gentlemen, this is a football.”

    Maybe we need to do the same on Sunday mornings. Maybe we need to hold up the New Testament and say, “This is the New Testament. It contains the story of Jesus Christ, whose name we have taken. Matthew quotes Jesus as saying ‘Turn the other cheek. Do not repay evil for evil. Go the second mile. Love your enemies.’ “

    Of course, the response we would hear is one I have heard, “But in the real world, that’s not possible.” And that, my friends, is what the incarnation of Christ is all about. To show that this Kingdom of God stuff does indeed work in the real world.

    May God have mercy on our souls for not being clear that we are following the Lord of Love, the Creator of the Universe, and not expedient political policy.

  6. Also from 1truebeliever blog:

    My only consolation is the small sample size. I wish that I believed that these results weren’t representative, though it’s more or less consistent with my experience.

    The idea that 62% of “white Evangelical Protestants” back torture breaks my heart.

    Please skip the euphemisms here, by the way … the question was about torture. The question uses the word “torture.”

    54% of regular church-goers, and 62% of people like me — the white Evangelical Protestants — think that torture is just fine and dandy. We’re not discussing here whether putting prisoners in the presence of insects, sleep deprivation, or even waterboarding is torture. The question asks when torture is acceptable … leaving the respondent free to define torture for him/herself and then answer.

    In light of this, I’d like to know … What makes Christians different from the rest of the world?

    I thought it had something to do with how we lived our lives. Fruit of the Spirit, they will know us by our love, turn the other cheek, do not repay evil with evil, love your enemies, that sort of thing. Apparently, according to nearly two thirds of those who share my faith, I’m completely wrong about that.

    In the first century AD, the real split between Christians and their Jewish roots happened when Christians would not take up arms to defend Jerusalem. Our forefathers believed that Jesus had called them to peace — even if it meant suffering at the hands of an oppressor.

    Now, we think it’s okay to torture people?

    While so much of the Church is fighting against gay marriage and getting up in arms about what religious symbol Pres. Obama may or may not have had covered up and who said what to or about a beauty pageant contestant, we’re comfortable with torture?

    Chuck anticipates the challenge:

    Of course, the response we would hear is one I have heard, “But in the real world, that’s not possible.”

    Isn’t that what we’re always told in terms of encouraging sexual abstinence, though? That it isn’t practical? I happen to think that doing the right thing is practical. It is possible. If it calls us to face problems in this world, to do the right thing, then let it come.

    Yes, I mean exactly what I said.

    What is supposed to be more important to Christians in the US today: the US, or Christianity?

    When the Temple was being destroyed, the early Christians chose to stick with Jesus, rather than with their nation. They suffered at the hands of the Romans, and they suffered at the hands of the other Jewish sects. They did this because they believed that Jesus meant it when He talked about picking up our own crosses and following Him.

    They believed that being Christians meant not fitting in with their culture, being different, and holding on to righteousness even when it was going to cost them dearly.

    Why aren’t we willing to do the same?

    I’ve written — many times — about the “marriage” between the Religious Right and the Republican Party and how that constitutes adultery, since the Religious Right is a part of the Church, and the Church is the Bride of Christ.

    This is, I think, another of those symptoms.

    ————–

    (BRAVO!!)

  7. By the way, torture is a rather vague concept.

    Waterboarding and other advanced techniques are not beyond those used on our own soldiers during training. If it’s torture for a terrorist, why isn’t it torture for our solder? Also, how is it immoral to make a person really uncomfortable to save American lives? This is what I don’t understand.

    I don’t see how the scriptures about loving your enemy can be applied to the State. The state’s purpose is to defend society, it was not created to be nice to blood thirsty enemies. Of course, come to think of it, I think a few of you also called the military evil. That isn’t logical at all. If a government cannot defend the people, what exactly did God set up rulers for?

    Now it’s true that we can’t stand by while horrible evils are done, however, the facts do not indicate this being an evil. In fact, there is strong evidence that information gained by such interrogations have actually saved American lives. I can provide evidence if necessary.

    You notice how I’m having to argue with myself here? Answering predicted points even though no one has made anyway?

    • Ricardo,

      1. If some principle is true, it has to be true both ways, right? Otherwise, it makes no sense to have such a thing as “war crimes.”
      2. Would you support waterboarding US POWs if it saved enemies’ lives?
      3. Did we not execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding in WW2?
      4. Having a vaccine does not disprove the existence of the disease; prepping soldiers for waterboarding is not the same as doing it 183 times to someone.
      5. It appears the primary purpose of the torture was to try to get al Queda prisoners to justify linking 911 with Iraq, which everyone now knows was the “big lie.”
      6. Do big lies bother you, Ricardo, or is all fair in love and war?

    • [QUOTE] If some principle is true, it has to be true both ways, right? Otherwise, it makes no sense to have such a thing as “war crimes.”[/QUOTE]

      You know, just because you string a bunch of words together into a sentence, doesn’t make it an actual point. You’re presupposing that the wicked right wing Bush administration has committed war crimes because it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. You treat it like a fact found in scripture, and then you turn around and belittle your opponents, calling them Nazis or Satan worshipers.

      [QUOTE] Would you support waterboarding US POWs if it saved enemies’ lives?[/QUOTE]

      Are US Soldiers and Al-Qaeda terrorists even comparable? If you believe they are no different, merely different PoVs, I think you shouldn’t be making moral judgments period.

      [QUOTE]Did we not execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding in WW2?[/QUOTE]

      The Japanese actually tortured people. What we’re doing is making them really uncomfortable, and it HAS saved American lives. And yes, American lives are more important than the lives of our enemies.

      [QUOTE]prepping soldiers for waterboarding is not the same as doing it 183 times to someone.[/QUOTE]

      It’s not, but at that point it becomes recreation for our evil torturers, and I approve of that message. Unlike you, my undies don’t get all tied into a knot when I think about a terrorist getting water squirted in his face. Of course, somehow you think there is a scripture that says “thou shalt not waterboard”, but you’ve never really made the case for it. If it isn’t torture, if it is used to train our own troops, if it has been used successfully to save people like you (even though you obviously don’t appreciate it), where is the downside? Oh, but in your world, I guess it’s okay to let Americans die to satisfy your misguided righteousness. Misguided is the least of what I can say, considering how awfully you accused fellow Christians of being terrible things, as if you have any authority or wisdom to make such declarations!

      [QUOTE]Do big lies bother you, Ricardo, or is all fair in love and war?[/QUOTE]

      I can teach you a thing or two about lies, and I can tell you this, you’re wrapped up in them when it comes to world politics. You have to be in order to just condemn people you don’t even know as Nazis without hesitation. You sit there just expecting us to accept your position because it’s supposedly correct beyond any doubt, but you can’t even articulate how it is true! You just throw stuff out there, like “the big lies” about the Iraq war and other such things. What lies do you even know of? What you read on Marxist.Org? We don’t know, because you don’t tell us. You just stand above others and condemn, and make statements without bothering to back them up, insensitive that others disagree or would find them offensive.

  8. You know, that’s really the most disturbing and terrible thing about those two posts. It totally ignores the fact that their opponents have valid arguments. It’s not like they’re arguing to eat babies alive. It isn’t that clear cut. But these people feel they have the moral authority to condemn them, in mass, of being the most evil members of the human race. You know, that’s why we have all those cult people like Todd Bentley or Benny Hinn. They think they’re special, that they’re holier than other people, and that those who disagree with them are enemies of God. It’s the same kind of mindset. Even when I insult people, it’s based on their beliefs, but not based on the idea that I believe I know it all or that God is absolutely on my side. In fact, I can’t even say I’ve ever heard a direction from God. Of course, unfortunately, too many people think that God is on their side, even while they claim to be on “God’s side”. Their vain, in love with their own self righteousness.

  9. I don’t see how the scriptures about loving your enemy can be applied to the State.

    No one is talking about the State…the topic is concerning followers of Jesus finding it acceptable. And it is disheartening to see so many Church going Christians believe as they do–though not surprising, considering the condition of much of the Evangelical Church today.

    Perhaps you are making the common mistake which many Christians are making today Ricardo: one of believing the State and Christianity should be one and the same.

    You know, that’s really the most disturbing and terrible thing about those two posts. It totally ignores the fact that their opponents have valid arguments.

    Once again, looking at the topic strictly from a Christian (biblical) point of view there is no valid argument for torture.

    And that is the point.

    You (and I) have a choice. If we claim to be followers of Jesus Christ we each must decide if we are going to follow Christ’s ways and the teachings of the bible, or are we going to ignore both and follow the leading of the State.

    What are you going to choose to do Ricardo? I made my choice a long time ago.

    It isn’t that clear cut.

    Yes it is…

    You cannot ride the fence on such an important issue. It requires you and any other Christian to be on one side [of the fence] or the other. There is no grey area.

    • [QUOTE]No one is talking about the State…the topic is concerning followers of Jesus finding it acceptable. [/QUOTE]

      We’re talking about people’s opinions of an action taken by the State. Also, it isn’t clear why it is Christians shouldn’t find it acceptable. The poll says itself, they go to church more often than others do. That means more biblical study. Hahaha!

      [QUOTE]Perhaps you are making the common mistake which many Christians are making today Ricardo: one of believing the State and Christianity should be one and the same. [/QUOTE]
      I was obviously talking about opinions, not about the state and Christianity being one. Just because I agree with a policy doesn’t mean I believe the Church and the State are one. Your logic doesn’t follow, it assumes too quickly. Perhaps that’s the common mistake you should be concerned about, these assumptions.

      [quote]Once again, looking at the topic strictly from a Christian (biblical) point of view there is no valid argument for torture.

      And that is the point.

      You (and I) have a choice. If we claim to be followers of Jesus Christ we each must decide if we are going to follow Christ’s ways and the teachings of the bible, or are we going to ignore both and follow the leading of the State.

      What are you going to choose to do Ricardo? I made my choice a long time ago. [/quote]

      First, you haven’t proven that it’s torture. You haven’t addressed any of the points made by those who do not believe as you do. You haven’t addressed the fact that this has saved American lives.

      Secondly, the choice isn’t between God and the State, it’s between a policy and an opposing policy. Why is this a “You either love Jesus or Satan” argument? Because you equate your opinion with that of God’s opinion, kind of like how you made a point about me believing the Church and State are One. You’ve done the same, only you’ve made it “Church and My Opinion are one”. You’ve accused someone else of what you in fact are doing.

      My choice is made, though I sin often, I am a Christian. And believing as I do doesn’t make me an anti-Christ. I think it is rather clear where I stand in Christ, insomuch that I do not judge you for the opinions you hold. I love you very much as a sister of Christ, and I do not equate your opinions with that of an unbeliever. Now while I may think your opinion is wrong, and I definitely condemn the bigoted opinions of those other two people, I don’t pretend that you are an infidel because you believe as you do.

      Perhaps this is a lesson that the wise Pj should learn from this foolish evil satan worshiper.
      [quote]You cannot ride the fence on such an important issue. It requires you and any other Christian to be on one side [of the fence] or the other. There is no Grey area.[/quote]

      That’s strange for you to say. I’m clearly not on the fence on this issue. I think you mean that I need to be on YOUR side of the fence, otherwise I’m in the gray area, LOL.

  10. The believers are so quick to choose the worlds ways of dealing with a problem that it is down right scary. I think of Pat Robertson who a few years back wanted to “do in” Hugo Chavez of Venezuela as the solution for dealing with this “tyrant”. I think over and over of the verse where Jesus said “You’ve been taught an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say don’t resist evil.” We now look at this scripture as a fairy tale that was from some distant past that is not really relevant for our culture of today. It’s funny how God says he’s the same yesterday, today and forever but it’s the new seeker friendly church that says we have to be hip to the now culture.
    I have also had enough with believers mixing politics and Christianity thinking we can change a culture by legislation. An article that does a good job of addressing that issue is one entitled “A better society without the Gospel?” http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/bjork/better-society.htm Sums up how I think the Christian Church should be looking at their involvement with government.

    • That was an excellent article solar. Thanks for passing on the link… (i’ll be reading it again)

      …believers are so quick to choose the worlds ways of dealing with a problem that it is down right scary.

      Yes it is scary.

      We have no control over what our government does–except in the voting booth: we can vote them out if we disagree with their policies, etc; but we as Christians do have personal control over what we agree or disagree with the government about–and torture is one of those issues (as are abortion, gay marriage, etc).

      And that is what i found scary about this poll. It was not just this specific poll, but other’s which have been taken among Evangelicals on the same issue this past year:

      Poll: On torture, evangelicals not looking to Bible, doctrine
      By Robert Marus – Thursday, September 11, 2008

      ATLANTA (ABP)—A new survey suggests the very Americans who claim to follow the Bible most assiduously don’t consult it when forming their views about torture and government policy.

      The poll of 600 Southern white evangelicals was released Sept. 11 in Atlanta in connection with a national religious summit on torture. It shows not only are white evangelical Southerners more likely than the general populace to believe torture is sometimes or often justified, but also that they are far more likely—to tweak a phrase from Proverbs—to “lean on their own understanding” regarding the subject. (more here)

      Those within the Church which have accepted the mind-set of the world or the government’s views on moral, ethical issues, are a mystery to me.

      On one hand many if not most of these same Christians, who agree that torture of another human can be justified for the ‘larger good’, are the same people who believe that abortion is unbiblical, (an act against God’s creation); immoral, unethical, and evil.

      I think of Pat Robertson who a few years back wanted to “do in” Hugo Chavez of Venezuela as the solution for dealing with this “tyrant”

      Yes, as well as John Hagee who is still working behind the scenes in Washington, in an attempt to sway elected officials to use their influence in bringing about a nuking of Iran!

  11. Perhaps this is a lesson that the wise Pj should learn from this foolish evil satan worshiper.

    Sure Ricardo, LOL

    You stand by your position…no one is going to change your opinion, that’s clear.

    God bless…

    • [QUOTE]You stand by your position…no one is going to change your opinion, that’s clear.

      God bless…[/QUOTE]

      I’d like to see you explain your position. So far, you have only stated the conclusion of it, but have never worked out the details of it that lead up to a conclusion. How is it that you can believe this is a choice between Jesus and Satan when the issues aren’t even black and white? How is this not a dangerous position to take in ANYTHING as difficult as this to judge? How can you believe as you do, despite the points that have been made? Do you acknowledge this has saved American lives?

    • No one? Not even Jesus standing before Ricardo, the Grand Inquisitor? My, that sure sounds hopeless, PJ.

    • Fortunately, Paul- God isn’t going to judge me just because you disapprove of my opinion.

      *edited by pj

  12. My, that sure sounds hopeless, PJ.

    Never hopeless, God can work miracles. 🙂

    Ricardo has went round and round this mountain with me so many times that its wisdom to sometimes be silent. Perhaps if i had allowed the numerous [other comments] Ricardo has left, but never made it on the open board, to be posted, you might get a clearer picture Paul.

    But i don’t allow commenters to personally attack others who comment, referring to them as stupid, fools, etc…..so they always get edited or deleted. BUT i think Ricardo just writes those out of his anger and/or frustration, knowing im not going to allow it on the open board, which is fine.

    I’d like to see you explain your position.

    Ricardo, my position has been aired and posted under every post ever put up on torture…and you know it. Find them…do a search.

    I do recall a question i asked you in a recent post on torture–i don’t think you ever answered it:

    Ricardo, this isn’t a trick question, but how would you feel standing before Jesus, knowing you had participated in the torture of another human being? Aren’t we told to follow Jesus’ (example)–would Jesus torture?

    You call it making them ‘uncomfortable’…this is partly what this article was saying; that we refuse to see torture AS torture. This is how the average person excuses it in their mind.

    The title says ‘Torture needs you’…and it does. It needs you and i to not necessarily personally participate, but to be accepting of it, for it to be considered moral ethical behavior on the part of the church. We as Christians cannot allow that Ricardo. It tarnishes the name and cause of Christ.

    https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/torture-needs-you/

    In that same thread i quoted from the PBS documentary Soldiers of Conscience:

    In the PBS documentary Soldiers of Conscience, a former Abu Ghraib interrogator tells the story of being in the room with the man he is supposed to torture. The man looks at him and says, “I have read about your Jesus. Why do you do these things?” The interrogator says that in that moment he saw the man, saw another human being, and could not do what he was sent to do in that room.

    For me this is what being acceptive of torture, as a Christian, is all about. Its not about keeping me safe so ok, i accept it. Its not about what the world calls the ‘greater good’…its about what it says about Christianity AND CHRIST to the world. Its about Jesus’ name. Its about caring about other people’s eternity, more then my ‘now’.

    Are US Soldiers and Al-Qaeda terrorists even comparable? If you believe they are no different, merely different PoVs, I think you shouldn’t be making moral judgments period.

    And THAT is why unless God opens your eyes, you will never understand.

    God shows no partiality—Jesus died for ALL who will believe. The souls of the lost in one nation are no more or less important then the lost souls in another nation.

    I believe its you who should not be making moral judgments.

  13. [QUOTE]so they always get edited or deleted. BUT i think Ricardo just writes those out of his anger and/or frustration, knowing im not going to allow it on the open board, which is fine.[/QUOTE]

    That’s exactly the case! I let it out first, then I mellow out after putting it to words. Those posts infuriated me beyond comprehension.

    [QUOTE]Ricardo, this isn’t a trick question, but how would you feel standing before Jesus, knowing you had participated in the torture of another human being? Aren’t we told to follow Jesus’ (example)–would Jesus torture? [/QUOTE]

    Would Jesus torture? Is that a trick question? The answer is obvious, yes he would, and he plans on it in mass numbers. It’s in the book of Revelation you know. I think I did answer this question before because my smart-butt answer really amused me. As for how I would feel… Well, if it saved innocent lives, I think I’d feel pretty good. And if it wasn’t to save human lives, and was purely consensual, I think I’d feel pretty good then too. Unfortunately, I’m still looking for a girl who is into that sort of thing.

    [QUOTE]God shows no partiality—Jesus died for ALL who will believe. The souls of the lost in one nation are no more or less important then the lost souls in another nation. [/QUOTE]

    Are you against the war on terror now? They’re not being killed, they’re being made very uncomfortable, and for the benefit of the innocent. Is our enemy righteous Pj? Are they innocent? They’d behead you just for fun. But with this logic, you’d think fighting them was a sin also!

  14. By the way, was kidding with the whole torture thing. I’m not weird!

    • I’m not weird!

      Yes you are…ahahah.. 🙂

      (just teasing you)

      [QUOTE]God shows no partiality—Jesus died for ALL who will believe. The souls of the lost in one nation are no more or less important then the lost souls in another nation. [/QUOTE]

      Are you against the war on terror now? They’re not being killed, they’re being made very uncomfortable, and for the benefit of the innocent. Is our enemy righteous Pj? Are they innocent? They’d behead you just for fun. But with this logic, you’d think fighting them was a sin also!

      Ricardo, what does a war, if it be on ‘terror’ (which “could” include people from all walks of life-nations-and religions, etc. depending on what the current admin. believes it to mean) or any war for that matter, have to do with the truth which is Jesus died for any and/or all who would come to him?

      What does the word say?

      (GOD) “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” 1Tim. 2:4-6

      You ask: “Is our enemy righteous..?”

      No one is righteous Ricardo…except through having put on Christ, by faith:

      Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

      Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (*made righteous*) by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3: 22-28

      There are 2 groups of people on this earth, and only 2: those who have been MADE righteous (or in-right-standing) before God by their faith in Jesus Christ, and those who have not come to Christ and are seen by God, as standing in the filthy rags of their own sins and SELF-righteousness.

      Only two people[s]…

      If this is how our Father and our Lord Jesus sees all people, isn’t this how we should see them also? If we are thinking, or rather prayerfully seeking to ‘mold our thinking’ along the lines of the way the Kingdom of God operates (as illogical as it may sometimes appear, to the fleshly mind) this is how we too will see all mankind.

      Also try to understand…this isn’t a question of what a government does..or even what gov. officials believe about torture; its about a disturbing trend within the US evangelical Church, among its members, which believes torture of “suspected” terrorists is fine or justified. If you looked at the questionnaire its also seen that types of specific ‘torture’ were not even mentioned–just the term torture itself.

      http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156

      That’s disturbing all by itself…

      Would Jesus torture? Is that a trick question? The answer is obvious, yes he would, and he plans on it in mass numbers. It’s in the book of Revelation you know. I think I did answer this question before because my smart-butt answer really amused me.

      Glad you find the topic amusing…

      You mention the book of Revelation Ricardo; don’t forget, it is God who is meting out judgment and his wrath in the writings/prophecies. We are not God.

  15. To be fair to Ricardo, I do understand where he is coming from to the extent that it is what individuals define personally as ‘torture’ that make up their beliefs about what torture is. That why I find such polls like this pretty useless, because they are not clearly defining terms. To me, for instance, hearing water drip constantly like some of the Asians treat prisoners do would be torture. To some who are overly politically correct just an offensive remark is ‘torture’. Many think capital punishment is torture.

    While I decry anything from any culture that would result in the starvation, mutilation, or illegal disenfranchisement of anyone, I think we need to define the word better. Seeing the dreadfully inhumane situation in Darfur which no one in the world, including Christians, seems to care about doing anything about, as opposed to what is going on at Gitmo, is an example of how being for or against some forms of torture is chic in our culture, as long as it is politically motivated by whichever party is most popular at the time.

    This has unfortunately become a liberal-conservative issue, in my view, not a matter of equally valuing all human rights.

    • This has unfortunately become a liberal-conservative issue, in my view, not a matter of equally valuing all human rights.

      And it shouldn’t be, in my opinion. For the world maybe, including the political world: but for Christians, politics or party affiliation should have no bearing on our beliefs, not only on this issue, but on any issue.

  16. [QUOTE]And it shouldn’t be, in my opinion. For the world maybe, including the political world: but for Christians, politics or party affiliation should have no bearing on our beliefs, not only on this issue, but on any issue.[/QUOTE]

    I agree! Politics should have no bearing on our religious beliefs. Instead, our religious beliefs should bear on our politics! You quoted many things of which I already know. I know all about why Jesus came. Duh, he came, he died, he rose again to make ALL men free. I know these things. Jesus, by the way, is also Truth. That means all that is true ultimately comes from God. 1+1: 2. That’s a truth, therefore, it shares a certain similarity with God. A same sort of nature. If you fight for the truth that 1+1: 2, then you are fighting for a truth, and truth, of course, is another name for God. If we extend this further, we find that there are many other truths worth fighting for which, in the end, serve the purposes of God as well.

    Politics itself is an evil thing, of course, and evil people tend to be those in power. The world follows the course it has decided upon, and this course leads only to degeneration and death. This fact makes it all the more important that we are fighting for the truth in EVERY arena. Those who have power, though they are unworthy, are able to use their power to influence the culture. When you speak as you do, it seems to say that Christianity should be divorced from worldly issues (though you still comment quite a bit on worldly issues). However, to divorce yourself from such battles divorces you from Christianity duty… Which is to be a beacon of truth, to fight for truth.

    The torture thing is only one small and almost irrelevant issue in the grand scheme. First off, it isn’t even clear that it is torture. You keep saying that, but then again anything can be called torture if you think hard enough on it. These methods are used on our own soldiers, and while they’re definitely unbearable, that terrorist who got it done on him 182 times never died at all during those 182 times. He wasn’t mortally injured. He wasn’t permanently disfigured. He’ll go on to learn about Jesus, or he’ll die and burn in hell, whichever he chooses. You argue that the way we treat people harms the work of God because it allegedly turns people away from God. Of course, the victims here are hardened killers themselves. Whatever you do to them, they aren’t going to become more prejudiced than they already are. While they may not enjoy being waterboarded, or stuffed into boxes, or kept awake at night by rock music, this isn’t really what made them hate Christianity to begin with. It is their current religion….

    If they are being made very uncomfortable to save American lives, this becomes a very worthy endeavor. That is not to say their lives have no value, but American lives have more value than the lives of an enemy. A neighbor is more valuable than an enemy. This is true, since as we can see from the Bible that Jesus the God often kills his enemies, usually in mass numbers, and sometimes even delegates the dirty work to people like.. King David. They are to be loved, and we love them enough to treat them with respect and courtesy even in evil Guantanamo. However, killing is necessary at times, terrible things are necessary in order to maintain peace for the innocent. A society cannot survive without spilling much blood. This is also a truth, though it is an ugly truth.

    What many of you don’t realize is that the whole world is in danger of judgment. You pretend that only your enemies (Christians who disagree with you) are under wrath, but the truth is that you are all just as likely to die as they are in any judgment. I don’t believe in a rapture that would steal away total idiots who know nothing of the world and mock others while pretending to be righteous. I can’t believe it, it’s like cheating justice. Let them go to heaven, but only after they see the horror come upon them just as it does on the rest of the world. The signs are everywhere! The signs are in our culture, in the movements of our enemies, in the horrible trends of the world. War is inevitable, and war will come again in terrible ways to kill millions of people. Evil is inevitable. Pain is inevitable. And part of it is inevitable because of the blindness of the Christian church. Rather than fighting for truth, (*some*) Christians …aren’t contributing in any useful fashion to the world at large. They aren’t fighting the war for our culture. They aren’t seeing the signs and taking steps to do something about it. No, they drown themselves in fake religious Ecstasy, and in the end they don’t see the water as it gets deeper, and deeper, and washes them away. That’s the fate of our culture, to be washed away, only realizing in the end the error of their ways.

    This torture issue, it is just one symptom of a larger and more deadly disease. That disease is that of apathy. It is a narcissistic society that cares only for itself. A people who go day by day trying to find new and inventive ways to make themselves feel special and Holy. A society that thinks in narrow terms, shallow emotional terms, while the facts are all in the air for everyone to see! The world is approaching a dark and terrible time, but they cannot see it, they cannot see the lurking enemy that will devour them first!

  17. […] wing terrorists who were professed Christians to choose from! And I have to tell you, news that conservative Christians constitute the single biggest block of Americans that support torture and the war in Iraq, it is no […]

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