Christian Militancy: Chuck Baldwin’s Blatant Appeal to Violence

Militancy, in the name of Christianity, rose in the last quarter of the twentieth century. Virulent anti-government and anti-pluralist visions gave rise to Christian reconstructionism, dominion theology and groups such as the Army of God.

It has also produced, what is known today as the Patriotic American movement:

Patriotic dominionists teach that political action will advance the kingdom of God in America. Using the vehicle of Christian media, they have taught evangelicals for the past three decades that America is a Christian nation and needs to return to its roots. Almost every evangelical in the pew has been influenced in one way or another by this sect. Patriotic dominionist leaders and their organizations have been closely interlocked financially and politically with the conservatives from the political Right. The secular conservatives purport to uphold morality, which appeals to evangelicals. The combined force of conservatives and evangelicals flexes its political muscles in Washington. (Dominionism and the Rise of Christian Imperialism)

Those in the NAR have been promoting (and prophesying about) this coming ‘Christian militancy’ for years:

We are coming to the times when passive Christianity and passive Christians will cease to exist. There is a maturity, a discipline, and a divine militancy coming upon the people of God. Those who have succumbed to humanistic and idealistic theologies may have a hard time with this, but we must understand that God is a military God. The title that He uses ten times more than any other in Scripture is “the Lord of hosts,” or “Lord of armies.” There is a martial aspect to His character that we must understand and embrace for the times and the job to which we are now coming. (Rick Joyner, “TAKING THE LAND” November 29, 2005 Elijah List)

Today, Steve Lumbley at Apostasy Watch, offers further proof of this growing call going out for Christians to rebel and and embrace militancy:

Chuck Baldwin’s Blatant Appeal to Violence

In his most recent column, Remembering the Alamo, Pastor Chuck Baldwin extols the gallantry of the Alamo defenders and implies that Christians may soon be required to to take up arms against tyranny here in America;

Beyond that, how much longer do we have before it will become necessary for freedom-loving States such as Texas (and maybe Oklahoma, Montana, Wyoming, New Hampshire, Vermont or South Carolina) to declare their independence one more time? An argument could be made that Washington, D.C., is considerably more brutish and tyrannical than old Santa Anna ever was. I’m not so sure that it isn’t already time to again hoist the “Don’t Tread On Me” flags, shout “Remember The Alamo,” and renew the faith and courage of William Travis and Patrick Henry.

This is not the first time Baldwin has suggested that violence may be called for in defense of freedom in this country but it is certainly his most blatant appeal to rebellion. It is a direct invitation to discard the teachings of Christ and give heed to our carnal instincts.

Pastor Baldwin is not the only one traveling the road to rebellion. Joseph Farah, editor of WorldNetDaily recently penned a column (Is It Time For A Revolt) in which he suggests we withhold our tax dollars to protest the administrations Middle East policies.

Let me begin by saying that I am a native Texan. I can trace my family roots back to the days of the Republic of Texas. I am directly related to one of the most famous figures in the history of Texas independence. I am also a student of history. I say this to let you know that I am not some Johnny-come-lately with a revisionist view of history. But neither am I swayed by the heroic and rather simplistic view of freedom loving Alamo defenders put forth by Mr. Baldwin…

The struggle for Texas independence involved many complex motives and agendas. Some of these motives were noble by human standards and some were not but none of them had anything to do with advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Pastor Baldwin writes some moving words in his homage to the Alamo defenders. I must admit that something within me is stirred when I think of heroic men standing against hopeless odds in the face of certain death for the principles of liberty and justice.

The question though is this; are these principles of human liberty and justice the ones for which we are called to stand and die as Christians or are we called to proclaim a higher standard of liberty.

Nowhere in scripture are we encouraged or instructed to take up arms for or against any of the kingdoms of this world. Jesus said specifically that his kingdom was not of this world therefore his servants would not fight to prevent him from being persecuted and even crucified by a worldly kingdom.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.

Paul was a citizen of Rome.

Acts 22:25-28
And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who stood by, “Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman, and uncondemned? When the centurion heard that, he went and told the commander, saying, “Take care what you do, for this man is a Roman.” Then the commander came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman?” He said, “Yes.” The commander answered, “With a large sum I obtained this citizenship.” And Paul said, “But I was born a citizen.”

He was imprisoned by Roman authorities on false charges brought by his Jewish adversaries. His rights as a Roman citizen were violated. Yet in all this he never suggested that the answer was to fight in the flesh against the Roman government. Paul did not imply that perhaps it was time to revolt against the wicked leaders of that day. He did not suggest to his followers that they form a political action committee to protest his imprisonment.

In all the persecution endured by the apostles and early church fathers we never see any hint of fighting against human governments and kingdoms.

Too many Christian leaders have falsely equated patriotism with godliness.

Patriotism is not something unique to the United States. Patriotism is common to every nation and culture. It appeals to mans fleshly sense of pride and sectarianism. It causes us as Christians to feel no connection or responsibility to our Christian brothers and sisters in other parts of the world. Patriotism mixed with Christianity makes us think that just because someone is patriotic they are also Godly.

The founding fathers of this nation were great patriots but they were not all Godly men. Benjamin Franklin was an avowed atheist all his life. Thomas Paine wrote Common Sense which was instrumental in stoking the embers of revolution in America. But Paine was a radical Deist who compiled his own list of bible inconsistencies along with his advocacy of Deism in a tract called  The Age of Reason. Thomas Jefferson believed in God but did not accept Jesus as Lord. He did not believe in the virgin birth and created his own version of the bible by editing out all references to miracles. Other founders such as John Adams seem to have had a true relationship with Christ but nevertheless were swayed by the carnal humanistic reasoning of the day.

Today we see the same sort of carnal reasoning among many of our so called Christian leaders. Some, including Chuck Baldwin, have become quit adept at twisting Romans 13 into something other than what it says.

Romans 13:1-2
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

That seems pretty straight forward doesn’t it. All authority is ordained by God who is sovereign over the affairs of man. If you find yourself under the authority of a tyrannical government it is because God has ordained (or at least allowed) it. Even in these cases we are admonished not to resist the authority lest we bring judgment upon ourselves. This interpretation is entirely consistent with the actions of all the apostles in their dealings with human kingdoms.

But Baldwin and others think they have found a loophole.

Rom 13:3-4
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Now we are told that our obedience to authority is applicable only as long as that authority is doing good. And who decides when a government is doing good or doing evil? Why we do of course! With this simple stroke of human reasoning, we rather than God become sovereign over our affairs. By mixing our reasoning with the Word of God we make the Word of none effect.

Was it good that Paul was imprisoned on false charges? By our natural reasoning we would all say no. But God used it to advance His kingdom.

The same applies to all the hardship and persecution endured by the saints. Even when governments are doing that which we see as evil, God can and often does use it for His own purpose. If we do what is right we have no reason to be afraid of authority even when we suffer by it because we know that in our suffering Gods sovereign plan is being carried out.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Now please do not misunderstand me. I have not said that our submission to human authority must be absolute. The whole counsel of God as well as evidence from church history demands that we resist human authority under two conditions.

1.) When any government compels Christians to commit sinful or immoral acts.

2.) When any government prohibits Christians from carrying out the instructions of our Lord such as proclaiming the gospel.

When either of these elements are present we must obey God rather than man. At this time however, with the exception of a few isolated and mostly correctable incidents, our government has forced neither of these conditions upon us.  (More HERE)


Its all part and parcel of the same package folks, Dominionism. It can go by many names, Political Christianity, Joels Army, etc.. but its the same false teaching, operating by the same spirit — the spirit of antichrist. Even the teachings of  Christian Zionism is part of this ‘whole’.

Its all an attempt to take us away from the true Gospel, the real Christ, and biblical Christianity.

37 comments on “Christian Militancy: Chuck Baldwin’s Blatant Appeal to Violence

  1. really excellent post…i get so tired of ppl tryna make the Kingdom of God accessible thru politics and other ways of adam…Jesus Christ is the ONLY way of salvation and the Kingdom of God is His, not man’s…the kingdom of God isnt OF this world and never will be…our King is Jesus Christ not adam and not adam’s lineage and civilizations…thx fa postin this…as always i enjoy ur blog…be bless… -g-

  2. The frightening part is that many Christians think this way. Try suggesting to a large group of Christians that believers shouldn’t bear arms and tell me how you make out. 🙂 It’s really not funny at all though is it? I was amazed when I realized that most believers think that killing in war is permissible and even blessed by God. I wonder why there is such a breach between Christians in this area.

    Blessings and be well,

    • [QUOTE]I was amazed when I realized that most believers think that killing in war is permissible and even blessed by God. [/QUOTE]

      I don’t know about it being blessed by God, but by definition if you’re in a war people are going to die. I don’t know of any other definition that doesn’t imply killing. Unless it’s the war on donuts or something. In which case, only Donuts will lose their lives, or the people who make Donuts.

      It’s funny how alien people’s thoughts can be from each other. It seems to me if good men weren’t willing to kill, you’d have already been killed by bad men. You think you can wish away mankind’s sin nature? You think that if you are good and Holy enough that God will save you from all harm? Perhaps you are better than all the world’s victims? I find that your thoughts are alien to my own because they ignore reality. I’m sure it makes you feel Holy to look down on the wretched sinners who have fought in wars to protect their people (like King David maybe), but it doesn’t make you so. Such delusion I think is as bad as the prosperity doctrine. It puffs up the religious ego, and makes a man feel as if he is above the society he lives in. He doesn’t realize that he will die along with the society he looks down upon. Vanity of vanities!

    • You are sooooo correct.
      Just read the comments even here!


      “I was amazed when I realized that most believers think that killing in war is permissible and even blessed by God.
      I wonder why there is such a breach between Christians in this area.”

      No need to wonder!
      A False Gospel has been preached for so long, starting with Constantine’s just war doctrine, that many do not really
      know the true Gospel because it is not what the flesh wants to hear.

      -Turn the other cheek
      -Love your enemy
      -Bless those who curse you
      -Do not return evil for evil
      -etc. etc. etc.

      No wonder this kind of doctrine is so popular.
      It puffs up the flesh with the “we can rely on our own strength”
      doctrine and the “we know what is best for you and The Lord”

      Oh My!

      No offence intended my friends!

  3. hey cathy…i agree…have found the same thang wit christians…i think ppl think they are christians cuz they american and they think america is a christian nation…but those who belong to Jesus Christ have forsaken the flesh and worldly ways and our ‘christianity’ is of Christ not of america…

    really…america is and always has been sooooooooooooo far from Christ…but really i think the packaged christianity is easy and comes from america not from Christ…be bless… -g-

    • [QUOTE]really…america is and always has been sooooooooooooo far from Christ…but really i think the packaged christianity is easy and comes from america not from Christ…be bless… -g-[/QUOTE]

      Maybe America is so far from Christ because people so easily abandon her? Unfortunately for so many Christians, the ties that bind them to their country cannot be so easily cut. The world falls into the hands of evil, deceitful men because of apathy and, perhaps, Christian vanity.

    • Maybe America is so far from Christ because people so easily abandon her?

      Ricardo, do you hear yourself?

      The answer is no, people, individuals living in America, are far from Christ because they have abandoned Christ himself, not America.

    • [quote]The answer is no, people, individuals living in America, are far from Christ because they have abandoned Christ himself, not America.[/quote]

      I meant America is so far from Christ becaue Christians so easily abandon her. It’s 2am in the morning, you can’t expect me to catch every detail.

  4. I was glad to see Steve mention World Net Daily’s Joseph Farah in this message…some of the articles he writes at his site, are downright scary. Even the titles…

    He has for months now, been constantly stirring the pot, trying to rile Christians up into questioning any/all governmental authority, and building a fire under his readers in promoting rebellion. Go look at his online store:


    (there are more items listed/linked on the left)

    Some of the titles:

    * Taking America Back by Joseph Farrah exposes the weaknesses in America’s current political and cultural systems and offers practical solutions—solutions that are real and doable—that can revive freedom, decency, and justice in our nation.

    * Black Belt Patriotism : How to Reawaken America (autographed)

    * Invasion (Autographed book) How America still welcomes terrorists, criminals, and other foreign menaces to our shores

    * The Global War on Your Guns

    * Scam: How the Black Leadership Exploits Black America

    Here are a few real doozies

    * America Fights Back: Armed Self-Defense in a Violent Age

    * Armed Response: A Comprehensive Guide to Using Firearms for Self-Defense- Armed Response, among other things, is about understanding what responsible use of lethal force is about. It’s also about the possible threats of survival and constantly assessing it’s potential impact on your situation.

    * Politically Correct Guns

    * Stayin’ Alive: Armed and Female

    * The Revolution: A Manifesto

    * United in Hate (Hardcover)

    * The Liberal Mind (book) The Psychological Causes of Political Madness

    * The Audacity of Deceit (Book) Barack Obama’s War on American Value

    And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. And remember, Farrah is a ‘Christian’…

    In my opinion, the Militant Christian Patriotic movement is a tool which was constructed by satan, through man, and is being used by him in a powerful way today..

    At its heart is Rebellion, which we know is not of God and it promotes idolatry. For those Christians caught up in the American Patriotic movement, its idolatry of Nation before God–for those into Christian Zionism, its idolatry of Israel: both are political, both are based on dominionism, and both are not biblical New Testament Christianity .

    Its all a part of the last day apostasy in America.

  5. Christiam Imperialism? Please, PJ, I wish. Stop teasing me.

  6. I don’t know if I have shared this before, but I will do so again to make a point. I actually got saved by hanging around ultra-conservative forums. If PJ is bothered by such tame article titles by Mr.Farah, she would run in terror at reading the things I have read. In those places, being to the right of “Attila the Hun” is actually possible, and is in fact a compliment of the highest order. The greatest evil there is to be a liberal, and as for liberal Christians? They call it an oxymoron.

    I suppose it was sometime after 9/11 that I became interested in the world. Before that time, I knew God only vaguely. While I had visited a Catholic church, and had gone to a Baptist private school, I knew nothing about Christianity. I did not even know that Jesus is God. I thought he was literally God’s “son”, like I was to my father. My earliest concept of God, perhaps when I was very young, came from the movie “Conan the Barbarian”. I think I saw the whole thing with my father, cousins, and brother when I was less than 10 years old. (See, that’s why I’m messed up, LOL) If it wasn’t for Conan occasionally saying with awe, ‘Grommm…’, I probably would not have even thought about God. After 9/11 however, when I found myself on a political forum, I witnessed many Christians in action sharing a Gospel I had never heard of.

    One such person was like a “Christian George Patton”, I call him that because he would insult his opponents very often and in witty ways. Men and women like him debated politics with liberals, communists, socialists, anarchists, and many other -ists every day on those forums. They also debated religion against atheists and other assorted infidels (they called them infidels lol). I noticed very quickly that all the atheists were liberal. There were never any conservative atheists. I posted there for 4 or 6 years and never met a conservative atheist. To get back on topic, I witnessed these people debating about the authenticity of the books of the Bible, debating evolution, debating between young earth theology and old earth theology. I learned for the first time that Jesus is God. I learned why he lived and why he died and rose again. I read the Bible for the first time, I encountered Matthew Henry’s commentaries, books by Josephus, websites with oodles of information that supported Christianity. Their strength against the atheists was so profound I became convinced little by little that God was with them. I also found their opponents to often be vile and dishonest. They would speak something and a conservative right wing nut job Christian would respond like an old professor to refute them. There would be former military or former police officers commenting regarding gun control laws, and then at the same time commenting in favor of Christianity. I saw in them an intense aura of truthfulness to them, and in their opponents an intense aura of darkness. In the end I came to accept their political positions, but more importantly, I accepted their faith in Jesus Christ.

    Once I approached one of the men I considered most responsible for converting me. The ‘George Patton’ of Christianity. I thanked him and told him that he had been most responsible for my conversion. He replied, ‘It wasn’t me who brought you to Christ, it was the work of the Holy Spirit.’ PJ, what you fail to understand is that these conservatives you take pleasure in tearing apart are often just as Christian as you are. Their faith is in the same God. Their differences are only in opinion. Those Imperialists and warmongers are, perhaps, very useful for the cause of Christ. On the other hand, those Christians who rant about the evils of America, or who sit around making vapid statements about ‘you’re not supposed to kill in war!” don’t really contribute anything towards intellectual or spiritual thought.

    By the way, the vast majority of those ‘Imperialists’ would like your forum, except for threads like these. I should know, I’m a little imperialist myself.

  7. I really wish you would add an edit feature on this blog PJ. I cringe when I read my own posts sometimes. I don’t really proof read them before hitting submit most times.

    Oh, and I had one final observation. Much of your thread here was mostly fiction. Christian Imperialism? If we were imperialists, maybe we would have won the election. We lost because of a weakness in belief. Our primary contender was someone we had spent several years being against because of his lukewarm positions. McCain was hot air, so was Romney, and all the other ‘stars’ of the Conservative movement. They were impressive because people so easily accepted their mighty declarations of Christianity or patriotism. In truth, behind their zeal is false religion and political weakness.

    • Ricardo, that’s a feature im hoping wordpress gives to those who comment some day too..i know its frustrating.

      We lost because of a weakness in belief.

      Belief in what, America, Christ, etc?

      I didn’t lose at all. LOL

      When you believe God is in control, and your prayer is ‘your will be done Lord’, then you can’t lose.

  8. ricardo…thx fa ur response…my grandfather was navy in ww1, my father was army in ww2, my uncle survived pork chop hill in korea — not many soldiers did — and got some medals…until he died he boasted in military honor and sacrifice, in how its right to defend our honor and country…to my greatest sorrow, he died without knowing the Lord Jesus Christ — he never knew the gospel of repentance, comfort and salvation…for all his medals, courage and ideals, without Christ he is in hell…so much for military value…

    while the military boasts such platitudes as honor, courage, fidelity and love for family, God and country, they do so outside the covenant of Jesus Christ — the Way , the Truth & the Life…God doesnt call men honorable, faithful or courageous, God calls all men sinners born in sin and shaped in iniquity and any group, individual or ‘ism’ that calls men somethin else is a liar…Jesus Christ said whoever loves Him keeps His command, does the will of the Father in heaven…the Father sent Jesus Christ to heal, deliver and cleanse from all unrighteousness, not any military…and nothing of adam or the adamic nature or civilizations is righteous or accepted by God…

    my heart grieves for the men and women who are deceived believin tha military is somehow righteous and of God…this arrogant doctrine is a lie from the pits of hell…u wont find one example where Jesus Christ told any man to kill someone, to torture them, to put your foot on some man’s neck to get something of this earth or some man-made form of righteousness…the ways of this world and the kingdom of this world, all of which are fought over and defended in war, are of satan, the ruler of this world and it’s satan’s name they invoke when they seek god’s blessing in war and killing…the true and living God isnt a murderer but satan is a murderer and he was a murderer from the first…the true and living God isnt anything like satan…and the true & living God won’t bless sin…

    here’s the good news…Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world…those who belong to Jesus Christ, even tho they are decieved by this false doctrine of military vanity, will be delivered and set free…they will know the true and living Christ and His gospel of repentance, comfort and salvation…Jesus Christ wont lose one…but the military is gonna lose every single one who belongs to Jesus Christ…those who belong to Christ will repent and be saved and their sin will be washed away and their hope will be found in Jesus Christ, not in military…

    u dont have to take my word for it…wait and see…u will hear it from soldiers who are delivered outta the mouth of the lyin enemy of God; politicians can only decieve those who dont have eyes to see and ears to hear…but Jesus Christ makes the blind see and the deaf to hear; He is the Lord who heals us…u will hear it from them…be bless… -g-

    • Good reply CovenantBride.

      I especially appreciated this point:

      “while the military boasts such platitudes as honor, courage, fidelity and love for family, God and country, they do so outside the covenant of Jesus Christ..the Way , the Truth & the Life…God doesnt call men honorable, faithful or courageous, God calls all men sinners born in sin and shaped in iniquity and any group, individual or ‘ism’ that calls men somethin else is a liar…”

    • [QUOTE]my heart grieves for the men and women who are deceived believin tha military is somehow righteous and of God…this arrogant doctrine is a lie from the pits of hell…u wont find one example where Jesus Christ told any man to kill someone, to torture them, to put your foot on some man’s neck to get something of this earth or some man-made form of righteousness…[/QUOTE]

      Yeah, Jesus never said that, he just ordered the Hebrews to slaughter entire groups of people. Kill murderers and blasphemers with stones. Etc. I wonder how you deal with that? Oh, right, Old Testament. What about New Testament when he’s going to send legions of people into hell? That’s revelation. Brutal God we have I think.

    • whenever ppl wanna justify sin or the sin nature or the flesh stings because our ways aren’t God’s ways (murder, war, tithing & other false doctrines, unforgiveness, etc, which always find Christ an offense & stumbling stone) they run to the OT to defend their own natures by sayin God told the hebrews to kill everyone…as though God is just like them…as though God is somehow different back in the day…

      Jesus Christ is the exact image of God…God in the flesh — and God dont change…Jesus Christ never told anyone to kill, or to covet the things of this world or the kingdom of the world…He said to bless those who curse us, to pray fa those who despitefully use us…to forgive as we are forgiven, and because we are forgiven…to pick up our cross (not kill someone else), deny our flesh and follow Him…Jesus Christ told the pharisees tha they studied the scriptures and the scriptures testified about Him — and they didnt know Him…Jesus Christ said tha satan is the god of this world…tha satan is a liar and the father of lies and when he lies he speak of his own; tha satan was a murderer from the first…tha satan comes to kill, steal and destroy…all of what is spoken of satan is adam; the war in heaven between satan and the angels and satan bein cast outta heaven is a picture of adam bein cast outta the garden…

      John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

      the adamic nature satisfies its own flesh, and dont have the mind of Christ…and if any man read the OT outside of Jesus Christ (without the Holy Spirit), his understanding is veiled as moses’ face was veiled before the children of israel when He saw God…

      the children of israel in the OT believed that everything came from God and that God brought good and evil; but Jesus Christ wasnt evil, never brought evil and was without sin and never sinned; God sent Jesus Christ…Jesus Christ said to em ‘you have an enemy’; that was a revelation…and Jesus declared the name (nature, character, true being) of God (Father) and revealed God and exposed the nature of satan which is the heart of adam and rules over adam (as leviathan rules over the children of pride)…

      Job 41:1 – 34 Can you draw out leviathan with a hook? or his tongue with a cord which you let down? Can you put a hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? Will he make many supplications to you? will he speak soft words to you? Will he make a covenant with you (reference to the blood covenant of the Lamb of God)? will you take him for a servant forever (Jesus Christ showed Himself a servant — not of man, but of His Father)? Will you play with him as with a bird? or will you bind him for you maidens? Shall the companions make a banquet of him (but a feast is prepared for God’s ppl in the presence of the enemy, the body & blood of Christ)? shall they part him among the merchants (the cloak tha Jesus wore was parted among the soldiers)? Can you fill his skin with barbed irons (Jesus Christ was scourged)? or his head with fish spears (Jesus Christ wore the crown of thorns)? Lay your hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more (no man can conquer his own flesh/sin). Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him? None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me? Who has prevented me, that I should repay him (God is not a man tha he should lie or the son of man tha He should repent; and if man can’t reign in his own sin and flesh — leviathan — how can he imagine to question the true and living God who is greater than leviathan)? whatsoever is under the whole heaven (heaven is His throne, earth is His footstool [the enemies of Christ]) is mine. I will not conceal his (adam hid, but the light of the true & living God exposes sin) parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion (but of Christ: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he has no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him). Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle? Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about. His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. By his sneezes a light does shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goes smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth. In his neck remains strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him. The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved. His heart is as firm as a stone (God removes the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh); yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone. When he raises up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves (but of Jesus Christ: a bruised reed He wont break and the smoldering ember He wont extinguish). The sword of him that lays at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. He esteems iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble. Darts are counted as stubble: he laughs at the shaking of a spear. Sharp stones are under him: he spreads sharp pointed things upon the mire (the snares of the enemy). He makes the deep to boil like a pot: he makes the sea like a pot of ointment. He makes a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear (perfect love casts out fear; faith & fear can’t reside in the same body). He beholds all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.


  9. -g- you said . . .

    “u dont have to take my word for it…wait and see…u will hear it from soldiers who are delivered outta the mouth of the lyin enemy of God; ”

    well here is one soldier . . .


    blessings to all,


  10. P.S. Here is an excerpt from the Christian Post link above . . .

    The soldier said . . .

    “I have been trying to justify being a soldier and finding a way to do so while still being a Christian, because that is what I wanted to do since I was a kid,” Barnes wrote in his request for conscientious objector status in December 2006.

    “But I can no longer justify spending my short time in this world participating in or supporting war. … I must try to save souls, not help take them.”



    • amen & hallelujah…when the deaf and blind are healed how great is our Lord? and how wonderful tha our God cleanses us from all unrighteousness and we be new creations in Christ…hallelujah…thx so much fa this post…i love to see the victory of our God & He dont ask for his ppl to be returned to Him…He seeks em out and finds em where they are and brings em to Him, right in the face of the enemy…He prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemy…hallelujah…beautiful post…be bless… -g-

  11. Regarding the discussion here on Christians and warfare, does anybody but me see a strange dichotomy here between God as seen in the Old Testament and the sence that many Christians seem to have that there is no place for a Christian to be in the military or to go to war? It seems to me that the verses so often discussed in the Beatitudes in Matthew about turning the other cheek, etc., are what the Lord is saying to individual Christians. (And even for individuals, the Old Testament made exceptions–like there was no blood guilt incurred if a thief breaking into your home was killed. Does that no longer hold at all for a Christian?) Anyway, I don’t believe this is meant in the context of governments and wars. After all, in the Old Testament, God ordered His people to go to war, and often they were told to kill everyone–period. Not just the other army. If He looks so unfavorably on His people being involved in warfare in any way today, He has surely changed mightily in the past years and we all know He never changes! And I know this is not a theocracy as the nation of Israel was. But I believe there are still some principles there we need to look at. After all the Bible does say all Scripture is good for teaching doctrine.

    That doesn’t mean I necessarily believe it is good for a Christian to choose to be in the military. I think that might be a totally different thing than a person being called into service by their country.

    Somehow, there seems to be a srong paradox here. On the one hand, the reason some folks give for not being Christians is that they can’t believe in “a blood thirsty God” like the one they percieve in the Old Testament. And on the other hand, many Christian can’t conceive of a Christian going to war at all!

    This is not an area where my opinion is “set in stone”. It could change. But this is what I am thinking at this time.

    • Cheryl

      Its not as much for me about Christians and the military as it is Christians advocating violence or militant behavior.

      Take some of our Christian learder today like John Hagee. He and those well known Christian voices who are involved in CUFI (Christians United for Israel) have been lobbying members of Congress (as they did ex-president Bush for 8 years) to preemptively nuke/destroy Iran.

      Michael Brown is another Christian voice which as done similar things by sending out petitions via email, begging Christians to sign them.

      And they are not alone. If you go onto far-right conservative news sites, you can see the same type of spirit operating. WND is really bad for using this type of tactic. Planting seeds about destroying our enemies (enemies of the US), ‘rising up’ against those God placed in Government, questioning any/all authority, hinting that its ‘time for Christians to rebel’ etc etc etc..

      Its this type of militancy…this call to ‘take up arms’, to destroy, to rebel in a natural way, which is very disturbing. Its not Christianity Cheryl and it sure does not reflect the Spirit of Christ.

      Its being done by those perpetrating it in the name of Christianity, but in fact has nothing to do with biblical Christianity at all. Those doing this are actually enemies of the Cross–whether they realize it or not.

    • “After all, in the Old Testament, God ordered His people to go to war, and often they were told to kill everyone–period. Not just the other army. If He looks so unfavorably on His people being involved in warfare in any way today, He has surely changed mightily in the past years and we all know He never changes!”

      Remember that this was a time of entering into the promised
      land and cleansing it of everything that would lead the people
      astray. Similar to the generation that died in the desert
      and never entered into the promised land.

      God does not change but our times and circumstances surely have.
      The promised land was fully occupied by the Reign of Solomon
      so that prophecy was fulfilled. The New Testament has
      shed a greater light on The Fathers Will for His People,
      US/Christians in our times.

  12. Wow great post! I’ve been researching and musing on the reformation: magisterial reformers compared to (and torturing and hunting down)radical reformers (various excesses of them clumped together with exemplary groups of them under the perjoratively used monicker, Anabaptists.) Find out what godly anabaptists were all about and you’d have the post pj wrote.

    My natural bent, as a godly and active Christian evangelist and missionary, has been “patriotic” and “conservative.” The Lord is really kicking the pins out from under me in recent years. Hard to kick the golden calf, but by His grace doing it. Some ideas are better than others, following principles of righteousness more than others, and the USA has embodied many “good” principles. NOT, however, the kingdom of God nor His righteousness.

    These ideas you mention are deceptive to the church.

  13. I believe our country has become one of extremes in our thinking. On the one hand Christian folks say they believe in a separation of church and state and on the other they get upset when the government isn’t run strictly by Christian principles!

    I don’t think the militant stance of the NAR in any way equates to Christian patriotism. Nor should Christians who love their country and want to see it run properly by those we have elected to do so be lumped in with the Chuck Baldwin’s.

    I am completely against the dominionist agenda, as it is preached by charismatic fringe. However, nothing and no one will ever make me ashamed to be a patriot, or make me silently sit on the sidelines when I see
    wrongs that can and should be corrected.

    My niece was a Marine wounded in Fallujah in the attack on the female Marines there about 4 years ago, so when I see this girl who saved the lives of several around her by returning enemy fire while wounded herself, still bearing both the physical and emotional scars of it such reasoning makes me sick.

    Thank God for patriots like Alesha!

    • Amen for patrios like Alesha. Without them, Righteous Holy Christians wouldn’t have a country they could condemn.

  14. I was in a Bible based cult for many years. That experience taught me to question the Bible, to use common sense. One to the things I learned was to question my leaders in the church, and to judge a tree by it’s fruit. Jesus taught his disciples to show respect to the religious leaders like the Pharasees, but not to follow their example because they were blind guides… now if this is true IN THE CHURCH, how much more is it truth in democratic Republic where we elect our own leaders? HELLO.

    Notice in Romans 13, Paul said, “Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.” Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just “because they said so.” It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government’s laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic, church that teach otherwise have their theology in error.

    Let’s not forget, in the 1930’s Germany was a modern democracy much like we are today, but both Protestant and Catholics used Roman’s Chapter 13 as an excuse not to rise up against the Nazis when they were still a minority political party.

    When the German pastors were deciding whether to follow the directives of Adolf Hitler, even when they knew that many of his policies went against their conscience, many pointed to the first verses of Romans 13 to justify their decisions to do nothing.

    So what is the exception to obeying the government? That answer to the question is can be stated in three simple words: OBEY GOD FIRST.

  15. The author of the above past stated, “Nowhere in scripture are we encouraged or instructed to take up arms for or against any of the kingdoms of this world.” You are correct, Jesus said his Kingdom is not of this world. It could also be argued that those who labor in an attempt to change the government through the political process are wasting their time and strictly speaking they are not following Jesus. I you believe this, I’m okay with that, as long as you are consistence and spend most of your free time sharing the gospel.

    Here is what I see: a New World Order is being erected and it is the biggest threat humanity has ever faced. Moreover, it is a menace to each and every one of us individually. It is a danger to our family, our way of life and our children’s future. Our country is in crisis because we can’t self govern! The issue is not politically left or politically right—it is just common sense: either we promote liberty from the bottom-up or we will lose that liberty and face tyranny from the top-down! Make no mistake about it, if American falls, the effect will be global tyranny.

    If we aren’t a people who can self govern, I mean self government of our character and self restraint, we will perish as a nation. Smaller government can only happen if we become a people of self government. As Christians we understand we have a sinful nature and we disciple ourselves accordingly. We know we need to place limits on our behavior. And the Founders of this country learned the lessons of history well, they knew if man need to limits himself, then government also needs strict limits. That is why they gave us a Republic, so that on man would be above the law.

    Sadly, our Republic has become a democracy. We are no longer a nation of law, our Constitution is disregarded, and we have bigger and bigger government… why? because we cannot self govern. Our experiment in self-government has all but failed. We don’t have godly character and love for our neighbors, so we need more and more police, prisons, laws, insurance, policies, etc. In short, the church in America has failed this country.

    The key to self government is not Washington D.C. but the Church. The problem is not “no prayer in schools, no prayer in schools” but “no prayer in the church, no prayer in the church.” We need a revival! And revival rests with the Church.

    We have bigger and bigger government because we are people who no longer have self control, self discipline or self government. We decry the largeness of government, but there is a direct correlation between our lack of faith in Christ, our lack of self government, and the growth of our federal government. The only answer is Christ; a spiritual awakening that transforms individual lives!

    The time is coming, and has already come, when men of good conscious will be called upon to defend the cause of liberty with civil disobedience. Consider the alternative, a New World Order without God. That’s what is coming, and coming quickly. We are blessed by God to live in a country where we Constitutional rights. Paul was a Roman citizen and as such he used this legal rights to advance the gospel, we should do no less. Note: I do not advocate violence, but I do advocate civil disobedience.

    Exodus 1:15-17
    Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.

    We need to fear God more than we fear man.

  16. Hi unspy…

    Another interesting example from Hitler’s Germany is the idea that they promoted patriotism with a religious ‘tone’–Christianity in fact.

    Of course it was a wrapped type of false Christianity, but it worked with many of the people.

    No war is a good war, but if government or leaders [as Chuck Baldwin and others] can give that war a religious “flavor”, people who ARE religious will more likely fall in line behind it. This works the same with stirring up militancy or rebellion.

  17. We can find the just and unjust in all wars. As we speak, terrorists all over the world are waging what they call a ‘holy’ war, deliberately klling thousands of their own innocent people in the bargain. Should we merely overlook it when it is in our power to stop it? I don’t think God would look very kindly on us if we didn’t do what we could to help those who cannot help themselves.

    Certainly Christians have waged ‘holy’ wars, and committed atrocities as well to try establish our religion as supreme. Hitler’s mass murder of the Jews is one of the worst and most examples of religious beliefs gone wild. So advocating violence, or war just to make a religious statement, whether it’s a Chuck Baldwin, Hitler or Osama Bin Laden, is not really justified in hindsight, because we know those kinds of things have done nothing but turn untold generations of people against religion instead. I think most folks, believers and unbelievers alike, think war should never be waged except when absolutely necessary to protect ourselves and others when we are attacked, or in danger of being robbed, tortured, killed or brought under tyranny.

    However, sometimes it is necessary, like it or not, to protect ourselves and innocent folks who can’t. If the Allies had not waged war against Hitler, for example, where would the world be now? Freedom would be a thing of the past. This blog would probably not exist, nor would churches, except for those controlled by the state.

    So, war may not be a Christian thing, but like it or not, as long as human beings try to kill, maim and destroy others, and deprive them of basic human rights, war in some form or another will always be a necessary evil.

    In addition to my niece who was wounded in Iraq, there are two young folks at my church who serve there who are very fine Christian men and women. They aren’t war mongers by any stretch of the imagination, but they serve because they believe it is their calling from God to protect our country and those innocent folks who need help to be freed from tyranny and and torture. They don’t enjoy having to kill folks even in self defense, but they do what they have to protect others who can’t protect themselves.

    Personally, in a climate where so many Christians nowadays, of both political parties, seem to be think it’s more chic for not believing in war at all, I find the attitude of my two young Christian friends not only more admirable, but much more realistic in these violent and unpredictable times.

    I, for one, am glad to know they’re out there.

  18. Hi…

    Yes there are many fine men and women in the military today…and always have been. I don’t think anyone will dispute that.

    My Dad, Uncles, Brother, and my eldest Son, were all in the military.

    What is dangerous [and biblically wrong] is for Christians to attempt to incite rebellion, militancy, war, etc..among Christians in the name of Christianity. To me this is what Baldwin, Farah, Hal Lindsey, etc etc do by the articles they publish. As does John Hagee, Bauer and those involved in the CUFI movement.

    They are doing great harm not only to the body of Christ itself here in America, but also great harm to how Christians are seen around the world, here in the west.

    What is very interesting to me, is that if you visit Christian communities in other parts of the world or are in contact with them, this type of call for rebellion is not evident.

  19. pjmiller, I respect what you have to say, it has given me pause and cause to think. You sound like someone who is honestly attempting to follow Jesus. People like you are what the Bible would call disciples “in Christ” and not Christian. That term Christian isn’t used much in the Bible, and when I hear it today I DO NOT think of someone on a “spiritual path” but rather I think of narrow-minded person who think a 2000 year old myth is literally true. They say if the shoe fits wear it, well for most Christian I know the term “Militant Reactionary” fits and they are more than happy to wear it. Allow me to quote you:

    In my opinion, the Militant Christian Patriotic movement is a tool which was constructed by satan, through man, and is being used by him in a powerful way today.

    Sorry, I think you have it twisted up a bit. Patriot’s are the people who defended your liberty to be a pacifist and ensure you live in a country where you are free to follow Jesus, Buddha or Uncle Tom. Perhaps you feel you could follow Jesus more effectively under a communist or fasist government–well, if that is what you wish for, that day may not be far off–thanks to people like you.

    It should be pointed out that the Founders of this country could also be called “Militant Christian Patriots” and they crafted a document called the Constitution which has one specific purpose: to limit government. Why did they feel the need to limit government? Because they, like you, knew very well that man had a sinful nature and therefore sought to establish a Republic in which no man was above the law. They did not trust democracies because the knew through out history attempt toward democracy always lead to despotism. These “Militant Christians” sought to protect us from and the tyranny of a ruling class or the oppression of an elite oligarchy–sadly, it would seem they failed.

    In my view, the word “Christian” has become an ugly word. Those are the people who thought it was okay to kill the “Savage Red Indians” and steal their land… the same people who thought slavery was okay and even quoted the Bible to defend it’s practice… now when you place “Militant” in front of the term, it get even uglier.

    Militant Christian sounds like a very ugly thing indeed, but if there is a Satan, then I think it was his idea to put those ugly words in front of the word Patriot. I’m not saying your wrong or misstating the fact to call many Patriot’s in the country “Christian” or “Militant.” I would agree that is true. What I’m pointing out is that a Patriot is not an ugly word. I am a Patriot, any one who loves his country is a Patriot. As such I have taken a oath to defend the Constitution with my life. I view being a patriot as a virtue, equal to my “faith” or “belief” in God. If you, as a disciple “in Christ” feel differently, than I respect you conviction to follow “spiritual path.” The world would be a better place if more people were determined to follow Jesus and not man. If everyone held your conviction, there would be no war, no jails, no prisons. Honestly, I wish there more men and women were like you–but I confess I am not one of them. I see the world as it is, not as it should be.

    I am a Patriot. I would not call myself a Christian. I don’t believe the Bible to be the literal Word of God, and I see most fundamentalist Christian as largely a group of ill-informed conservative reactionary, full of prejudices and preconceived ideas. My own view of God is what others have called agnostic or deist. My point in saying all that, is to say the following.

    We are entering a period of history in which a dark force (known for 200 years as the Illuminati) is make it’s finial push toward a Totalitarian democracy which will be followed by One-World Dictatorship. If this evil force succeeds, it is my firm belief mankind will be lost–enslaved forever more. In this epic battle with the New World Order, I would rather fighting along side a Militant Christian than a non-violent disciples of Jesus or Buddha, or Obama.

    “You cannot be a citizen and a Christian at the same time,” said Israeli historian J. L. Talmon, “for the loyalties clash.” Like most of what Talmon said, he was wrong, but in this case I almost agree with him. I would just state the case differently, I would say: “A Christian can make the best kind of a Patriot, as long as his faith in national sovereignty is equal to his faith on God. The trouble comes with those rare breed of Christan’s who get the idea they should be following Jesus as LORD. These so-called disciples “in Christ” hold no political convictions, and they are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.”

    Liberal democrats, I mean to say, those who hold to a Western democratic ideal, see political strength as growing from the bottom up, power from the people (i.e., “grass roots”), and they reject in principle the idea of coercion in shaping political will from the top-down. However, the coming totalitarian democratic state (New World Order without God) holds it as an ongoing imperative. It is along these lines the battle ground is being drawn, and “we the people” must boldly take a stand on the side of liberty or together all of humanity will face a tyranny like the world has never seen. The call to arms will soon be upon us. Like you I will pray, but unlike you, that will not be my only weapon.

    • Hi unspy..

      Sorry, I think you have it twisted up a bit. Patriot’s are the people who defended your liberty to be a pacifist and ensure you live in a country where you are free to follow Jesus, Buddha or Uncle Tom. Perhaps you feel you could follow Jesus more effectively under a communist or fasist government–well, if that is what you wish for, that day may not be far off–thanks to people like you.

      Sorry you felt the need to make this personal…

      And i disagree with you.

      Patriotic Militancy is indeed a movement within the church in America. Its roots are founded within the false teachings of Dominionism. It is not biblical and does not project the character of Christ in the least–in fact it projects the complete opposite. Which logically tells me it is the spirit of antichrist operating behind it.

      If interested you can read a few facts about this false movement here:

      Dominionism and the Rise of Christian Imperialism

  20. u know…i expect ppl who dont believe in /belong to Jesus Christ to look to every other way in the world as necessary to life; i find it really sad tha ppl who claim to know/belong to Jesus Christ don’t find Him all sufficient in this world; His grace is sufficient for us…why do we need the world’s agenda and the world’s ways — just in case Christ isnt able????

    Jesus Christ is callin His ppl outta babylon — without the consent of the world, in the face of the spirit of this world and not by the world’s ways — and nothin and nobody can stop Him…

    elijah laughed at the prophets of baal who called on their god in vain — he didnt consider their god as worthy of following — how come we, who have a better covenant and are filled wit the Holy Spirit, we who claim tha Christ in me is the hope of glory — how come we nod at Christ and make mention of His Name, in the same time wanna adhere to and vehemently defend the ways of this world, which are of the spirit of this world and not of the Holy Spirit and are against the one true living God, our Father…

    those who dont belong to/ know the true & faithful witness Jesus Christ, have nothing but this world to hold to and believe in and fight for…but we have a better covenant…why do the ppl who call theyself of Christ insist that we must also follow the ways of this world? even to the point tha we think dyin for the ways of this world is somehow good? somehow holy? somehow righteous? Jesus Christ is good, holy and righteous…and only Him…not this world, not the spirit of this world and not the ways of this world…

    Come outta her my ppl…

    And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. Revelation 18:4

    be bless… -g-

  21. Some thoughts and questions . . .

    The world is the world, the church is the church.

    The world should not be part of the church, the church should not be part of the world.

    Paul the apostle was a murderer, responsible for the death of Christians, before he became a believer. No one is beyond redemption.

    There is a conflict of interest between the world and the church. You cannot be an ambassador for Christ and an ambassador for the world. You cannot offer a person forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God and at the same time seek to kill him for whatever reason. (Gun in one hand, bible in the other hand).

    Doesn’t the freedom we have in this country give all freedom of worship?

    Doesn’t that freedom of worship include those Christians who believe as I do, and many others do. that we are to be “missionary” not “military”?


    • There is a conflict of interest between the world and the church. You cannot be an ambassador for Christ and an ambassador for the world.

      Cathy, you’re absolutely right. And its the way God intended it to be. I don’t understand the mind set of believers who can’t seem to grasp that.

      There is a move today, i noticed it last summer, not led by nuts or no-names, but by a few respectable names in the evangelical world, who are wanting to do away with the separation of church and state. (u prob. know that already) And they believe its biblical! …

      Wonder where that idea came from? I’ll answer my own question–it is being born out of the political christian (patriot) movement of the last 30 years.

      You cannot offer a person forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God and at the same time seek to kill him for whatever reason. (Gun in one hand, bible in the other hand)


  22. Separation of church and state was done away with in 1954 when Lyndon B. Johnson established the 501(c)3 tax exemption corporate agreement between the churches and the state. It allows the churches to disobey Jesus Christ by NOT rendering unto Caesar (taxes) and gives them a new master to serve in secret (the state) by signing an agreement NOT to preach on certain issues and NOT to expose evil practices and corruption in government and the world. Yeah, I don’t know what all the fuss is about in the above comment. This has been a “done deal” for quite some time now!

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